Closing Guilds (moved from Keeper's Korner)

[Padraig]

I'd say some wizards SHOULD be able to interfere if the dynamics in a guild fails. If a single player ruins the gameplay of many, well...there should be a proper response.

Maybe I'm biased, but anyone letting an applicant to wait for more than 3+ days fails.

Maybe I am over caffeinated and really impatient, but Kas is absolutely right. I know the Tower is normally the exception but if for some reason of one us isn't around on any given day, the other 3-4 are. You need to let go of the old "well they are looking to join US, not vice-versa" mentality of 10 years ago when any number of players were beating down the door to join.

[Cherek]

Guilds in Genesis have not been created with a template, or in any way that is standardized or even normalized. Each guild is a distinctly unique creation (notice I didn't say "mess") of code that one, or a group of people at one time in Genesis' long history created to bring forth some theme that players can enjoy together. In that each guild has been coded COMPLETELY differently, there is no "off" switch that can be easily flipped globally for guild councils to cease to exist. Rather, each guild has a vastly different degree to which the council structure of the code is enmeshed with even the most simple functions that every guild member uses. In some cases, it would not be too terribly difficult to remove council setup. In others, it would require a massive recode of much of the guild.

Cherek, is there something about what I wrote above that seems vague? The proposal you've made would require many months of work, if not more than a year, with our current wizard staff.

G.

I am sorry Gorboth but I am not familiar with the code of the guilds. You'll be the judge of what is doable, I cannot decide that. Would it not be sad if I held back on ideas because I did not think they were doable when in fact they are...? But you can just read through my notes and then just chuckle and go "Boy, he has NO idea how hard that is to code" if you want to.

But maybe ONE of the ideas are infact easy? In ONE guild? Maybe its just changing a few lines of code
so Calian council members can act on their own? Maybe its really easy to remove the part where a conclave member has to accept a new squire? Maybe its just removing a few lines of code in Ordheus or whats-his-name... I dont know? You did say that it "might" not be so hard in some of the guilds. Maybe its not doable in all guilds, but if atleast some small things are easily doable in some guilds, than that would be something.

And number two on my suggestion requires to begin with just a different mindset in current councils, a mindset where council memmbers are allowed to act on their own without the approval of the others. That is zero code.

Even if you do close a bunch of guilds it does not mean the others will automatically be filled, they will still have problems with inactive councils who you need to catch awake to get accepted into the guild, get promotions, etc. And people in leading positions will still cling to power. I mean we have seen that in the past as well, even with a much larger playerbase.

But no I dont think we should wait for big changes to guild strcuture. If something can be done now, fine, if not. It might eventually work anyway. And changes to guild stucture can come over time if needed. I think we should promote, now, and I think we should do whatever small "quick" fixes that can be done to the joining and promotion process in guilds. IF some can be done. Maybe my ideas arent doable, but I do think if there is some way to fix so that guilds are still playable, and members still able to join without the approval of a council or general or king or whatever, it would be a big plus. Even if its just one guild.

[Amberlee]

Old players hold on to grudges for longer then they hold on to characters.

Right now we might be tops 100 people that are devoted to Genesis, imagine what would happen if Knights, PoT, SCOP, SS and Rangers would shut down.. a world with april fool's joke of guilds would decrease the activity by at minimum 30 %... then we have the Diablo 3 release.. what happens then..

Either we fight for what we like and forget old grudges or we lose it all and move on with our lives..

I completely agree.

[Amberlee]

As for the knights.
I absolutely love the RP potensial for the knights.
And if i ever made a new character, i would join them ASAP.

But yes.. the application process sort of discourages that.
I have absolutely NO interest in not having an answer for months.
Then being a squire for months..
And then maybe if the sponsor is active enough, become knighted.

Takes too much time that i would rather spend doing other things then just sit still for weeks and wait for a reply to a task that took me half an hour to complete.

[Cherek]

Sounds like we have candidates for the Knights then!
I assume that if you are too restrictive in letting people join your guild and prove their worth, eventually, you most likely risk to kill the guild. Also, I firmly believe, a good guild responds to an application and handle the seeker immediately(within a day or two at max. If you let an applicant wait for weeks, or months, I'll say it's a total failure of the guild council and should perhaps be replaced somehow).

Well said.

And Creed, I am sorry, but spending 6 months proving your worth as a "goodie" just wont cut it these days. Nor does 6 month apprenticehood, no matter if its a warrior guild or spellcaster guild. Not even three months. ONE month, with an active mentor and an active apprentice sounds about right to me.

Some guilds adopted quite well to the "new" Genesis with less players. They actively started hunting applicants instead of waiting for them to come. And they seriously shortened all types of waiting periods, making new members feel a part of the guild quickly, and making it possible for them to raise in rank fairly quickly too. And none of the guilds I am thinking of seem to have worse RP now than before. So I dont think you lose quality by making things quicker, the opposite actually. You'll get members who enjoy it more, think its more fun, and perhaps even care more. Than in the sleepy guild with loooong application process and lots of waiting for promotions.

If you do take on leading a guild I think your goal these days should be to attract members and make sure the new members enjoy their time in the guild. If you do it by RP-ing a cruel king or the nicest person in the world doesnt matter, but if you even consider leading you should be active and you should strive to have your members enjoy your guild. That will attract players to the guild, and that will also make any new players feel this is an fun and active world.

Any guild leader who doesnt agree to the above I dont think should be a guild leader. I think everyone who seriously WANT to make this game fun, and WANT make it grow should be the one to lead guilds.

I might even actually go so far as to wiping all, or many, guild councils, let players apply, and let wizards appoint those best suited for the job. Yeah, even that far.

If it cant be done with code in a reasonable amount of time (my previous suggestion) than I think rounding up the people who want to work for active and growing guilds should be selected to lead them.

Selected by wizards, or by a one-time-vote within the guild.

[gorboth]

Great stuff, everyone. I am following this thread carefully.

Cherek, sorry if I sounded annoyed. I wasn't!

G.

[Uther]

Words of wisdom from the Wolverine.
The problem is.. Old players hold on to grudges for longer then they hold on to characters.
So if X did something to Y 10 years ago.. Then Y still hates player X's second 10 years later because of something that doesnt even matter anymore.

Just stupid if you ask me..
Only thing that it leads to is dead guilds.

AMEN!

[Draugor]

Everyone would like to change guilds almost, hell I'd LOVE to be a PoT, cause of the RP in the guild (and I'm a complete Takhisis nut). But with retarded leadership its impossible to join, retarded and inactive I might add. Also Ravhin has been in the guild for years and due to the leaders inactivity its damn near impossible to join and advance at any sort of rate, 3 years or something to get up to spiritor? And having to take Diris crap during all that time? Exchange the whole council, they are absolete.
But aye, unless you do something about the leading there you might aswell shut the guild down, people dont want to join cause Diri leads it, I have heard alot of people speak ill to say the least. And aye, I am one of them. They are prolly not getting more members and the current staff (aside from Ravhin) are inactive like hell so ya might aswell shut it down.

[Makfly]

In the past it was heresy to suggest the Wizards actively meddle in mortal affairs, but now is the time to change that. It probably was a good rule back then, but now it seems to be holding the game back, and thus should be removed, for a time atleast.

If the administration of Genesis wants to fix the problems with player mismanagements of guilds, without spending alot of time coding a better system for all guilds, then let the AoP step in and sweep out the dirt manually.
It's not like the game has a huge amount of guilds, and a huge amount of players to deal with, so this should be fairly doable in terms of workload.

Later on when the game is (hopefully) vibrant and have doubled it's playerbase, the old rule of a closed shutters between the Immortal and Mortal world can be reinstated.


So, what should the AoP do then?
Well, Gorboth have already set his eyes on 4-6 guilds as he mentioned. Start there.

• Boot the current council.
• Post a note on the guildboard explaining expectations of players & the guild.
• Post a note on the Common Board explaining that the AoP will take a more active stance in making sure the guilds are well managed to the benefit of the game as a whole. Mention this is temporary till a permanent fix is made.
• Let the AoP be the gatekeeper of guildmemberships for now.
• Set up an mailing name in guilds post office, that they can apply to. As in "send your application <mail solamnian_recruiter>" and then have that simply redirect the mail to the full members at large.
• If members don't contact the AoP within 14 days, then the applicant becomes a member automatically. If members do contact the AoP, then the AoP can make a decision based on the feedback to deny membership or extend the application period or whatever is reasonable.

This may sound like a lot of work for the AoP, but I seriously doubt it will be. Especially considering the benefit for the game and the nessesity of doing it.
People don't apply to guilds all the time, especially not now. It's (almost) code-free, and it can be done right away, plus it's a temporary method till a permanent (code-heavy) solution can be made.

What is expected of guilds then?
Making sure applicants are contacted within short period of time after they applied. (usually a week maximum)
Making certain that members, in general, have the chance to advance through the guild ranks. If a member have not actively worked against the belief of the guild, they should be able to advance up to the highest title available to full members (below council).
If a council is needed to promote someone, let the AoP do this too. A minimum of 14 days after joining, then a player who have reached the top rank possible for him/her can mail the AoP for a promotion. Then again if another promotion is needed, then a minimum of 14 days afte the previous promotion, the player can ask the AoP for another promotion.

What if things turn pearshaped?
If the AoP goes on vacation, or feels it's taking too much time, just share it with other Archs/wizards.
Or if it should turn out to be a complete disaster, just return to the old ways, but now with new people that can take on the council functions.

[Makfly]

If you think even my above mentioned idea is too much work, then how about this very, very basic (code-free!) solution:

• Boot the councilmembers* that mismanage the guilds.
• Make a call for active members to step up to the plate. 14 days application period.
• If you don't get any suitable candidates, then make the call game-wide. Everyone have a chance to apply to become part of the new PoT council or whatever.
• Post a note on the Common Board, and on each and every guild board explaining what the Admin expects of guilds and guildleaders, and that there will be taken active steps to ensure said expectations are being met. (see my note above for expectations).
• Give it some time to settle and see if things don't improve, if guilds and guildleaders are not living up to the mentioned expectations, well then, repeat the procedure.

*The playerbase is so small that most people know who is being talked about, and it seems Gorboth knows it too.