Death lost the bet!

[Kiara]

The highest title was much much lower than today, so reaching it was much easier.

I think this is the most important part of your post. It's been brought up by countless others, but to rehash it again, the title system is the worst thing that ever happened to Genesis. No one wants to die, especially after hitting myth, just to have to grind out that title again.

Staang to Dethraine: "Seregwath how big is Xashian?" "I don't know, my appraise sucks but she's at least a baby champion."

^^ What was so wrong with this?

I remember so many pfights in the 90's where people would die, run back to their corpse, wield/wear, jump back into the fray and die again... "So what? I'm still a champion...who cares?"

Now not only is there no mystique at all regarding player size, but even based on titles alone we can pinpoint with relative certainty the exact numerical statavg of the character. "He's a legend so he can't be bigger than XXX" So by changing titles, they changed the game completely and created a need to grind/bot/cheat your way to the top.

Why are people afraid to die? Because you made them so overprotective of their titles that you essentially forced them to chase.

Yup, I agree on that. Not that long ago we have a vote about making titles private instead of public. (or was it an option to hide them?). I think making all titles private would be an interesting experiment.

Or just make anything above champion private again... Or simple remove them.

[Laurel]

Without death penalty, what is your issue again? That ie. Seren spent countless hours on something you find utterly boring, but you did not? Confused ...

[Manglor]

Without death penalty, what is your issue again? That ie. Seren spent countless hours on something you find utterly boring, but you did not? Confused ...

Not sure to whom you're speaking, but if to me -- my point is that it created a culture of overprotectiveness. Everyone is a mere few rooms (give or take) from a safe room. People get attacked, and for the vast majority, a quick escape is their only goal.

Just because the penalty is removed doesn't all of a sudden mean there's a vast culture shift towards devil may care attitudes and launching into the fray with no regard to the consequences. Shifts towards a more pvp-oriented game take time, incentives, and changes in attitudes.

[gorboth]

I think Manglor is probably right about this taking time. I am hoping that the month and a half we have left is enough to see whether such a shift begins to take shape at all.

G.

[Windemere]

I think Manglor is probably right ...G.

Well. That's a first.

Just teasing. Manglor makes good sense in respect to this being something that will take some getting used to. I do not know if cultural norms can shift in as little as 1.5 months. Though, we shall see. What I think is also important is to consider PvP and how to modify/change it so that it can be more fun and entertaining.

I know Recoba disagrees completely with what I said about PvP having no real reward for either party. I suppose you could argue hurting your fellow player and making them need to recover is a "reward" but I do not feel that way.

What I would like to see is for PvP to actually have some sort of intrinsic or material benefit for participation for both parties. As I said earlier in this thread I do not know what this might look like.

One option is to create a zone where PvP can occur. This zone could be as large or as small as you like. It could be certain grinding areas or areas where people tend to go a lot. This way there would be places where pvp can not occur and others where it can.

Another option would be a little of a departure from standard Genesis protocol. What about creating an area specifically designed just for PvP where there are rewards, points, tournaments, etc. The most obvious place would be the Gladiator arena. What would be the departure is this. Equal (or similar) stats. Using the same method that was used for the Enchanter quest (making people small) you could create a medallion given when you enter that boosts your stats to a set average and then you must return to leave the arena. This way you would have some equality for people in PvP. This could be in addition to any sort of external PvP options that are determined as a way to come and test your strategy and mettle against others.

One final idea I've been toying with for PvP in the future, especially should death remain on a penalty free holiday, is changing the way death affects you. Amorana and I mentioned this earlier, that you could lose a % of any xp you gain for a certain amount of time. You don't lose anything, but you gain slower. Another option would be to have the death publicized. Have a board in Sparkle that creates a note whenever anyone is slain by someone else. A final piece to this could be the concept of "weakened state" that we see in some other MMORPGs when you die. After death you have a certain time frame in which you are weaker than before.

Anyways, these are just ideas. I just believe that this death penalty holiday is a perfect time to start considering a revamp towards player vs player interactions.

Windemere

[Laurel]

Wasn't Holm supposed to be such a place, created by players themselves ... and disregarded later when it was handy? Create such a place and have (for example) Rangers say that if they are attacked inside, they will take it outside too - what will you do to keep your weapons?

[Celephias]

I would think that people could engineer PvP with natural enemies if they chose to. What knight would not try to defend the Keep for example?

The last big PvP affair I was involved in was when Hektor brought a party into Ithilien. It was a back and forth affair and ultimately Iliana perished, but that was the last real team versus team PvP situation I have been involved in. Credit to Hektor for effectively initiating it in full RP. Stat-wise the MM team was bigger (by a fair amount if I recall), but I remember getting to VBS at least at some point in it. Fun stuff.

My point is that with no loss of stats, why wouldn't people just start raiding each other to provoke a fight? I think this is set up quite well for the melee types. The magic fights are way short because once the mana is gone you're done, but I can see the potential for big waves of back and forth fights if someone pressed the issue. Is anyone pressing it?

[Manglor]

I think Manglor is probably right ...G.

Well. That's a first.

I know. I took a screenshot to show Widow haha...

Though, we shall see. What I think is also important is to consider PvP and how to modify/change it so that it can be more fun and entertaining.

I definitely have been trying to shake things up. I think Manglor attacked 5 people on day 1. Everybody ran but I guarantee their pulses raced (to be fair and honest, I ran from Marduk in Neraka. Ogres don't fight well blind ) I didn't chase anyone, just wanted to have some fun and I hope Jhael, Marduk, Nagash, Syrk, etc. did too. Nothing personal

I know Recoba disagrees completely with what I said about PvP having no real reward for either party. I suppose you could argue hurting your fellow player and making them need to recover is a "reward" but I do not feel that way.

It's a bit of a griefer mentality/dick move to be honest, and should be hopefully be reserved for special enemies. Maybe I'm too nice...but my motivation would never be "haha now you have to recover, you suck!" But Recoba's mortal was never known to be 'warm and fuzzy' even for Nazgul.

One final idea I've been toying with for PvP in the future, especially should death remain on a penalty free holiday, is changing the way death affects you. Amorana and I mentioned this earlier, that you could lose a % of any xp you gain for a certain amount of time. You don't lose anything, but you gain slower. Another option would be to have the death publicized. Have a board in Sparkle that creates a note whenever anyone is slain by someone else. A final piece to this could be the concept of "weakened state" that we see in some other MMORPGs when you die. After death you have a certain time frame in which you are weaker than before.

I've said before, I'd love to have a global announcement similar to the new wizard one "You suddenly realize that Manglor has slain Windemere." or something. Also, the idea of "weakened state" or "resurrection sickness" as we know it in WoW is a great idea that could work exceptionally well in Genesis. Your stats/damage/spellpower is reduced by 15% (or more) for the next 5 hours played or something. But no death penalty per se. This could easily apply for PVE and PVP alike.

[Laurel]

Going for smaller people in neutral guilds who don't like to PvP? What is your goal? Hunt someone who can actually harm you ...

[Manglor]

Going for smaller people in neutral guilds who don't like to PvP? What is your goal? Hunt someone who can actually harm you ...

Attacked everyone I saw.