Death Penalty Opinions

[Celephias]

I always thought death should be meaningful to discourage crappy RP. I also liked the rush of danger. When you know there is no danger or implications, it encourages a different kind of behavior. However, this is what you're getting at (and may be what we need).

People may take on silly fights. Let me try to solo the balrog. I've always wanted to attack a nazgul for the hell of it. I don't like Irk's beard, let me take a swipe at him. Or worse, just annoying/crappy RP, enter a room, exa seren, slap seren. Actions should have implications. Ostensibly, the degree of the implications for an action informs the action. Makes one think.

The current hypothesis is that because of all the exp people have gained that they are afraid to engage in PvP or take risks. I think this could be true. What I think everyone is trying to find out, is how much is the right amount of 'pain' for a death to inhibit lousy behaviors, but not make it so much that it inhibits desired behaviors. No effect on PvP ala WoW I don't believe is the answer.

[Amorana]

I always thought death should be meaningful to discourage crappy RP. I also liked the rush of danger. When you know there is no danger or implications, it encourages a different kind of behavior. However, this is what you're getting at (and may be what we need).

People may take on silly fights. Let me try to solo the balrog. I've always wanted to attack a nazgul for the hell of it. I don't like Irk's beard, let me take a swipe at him. Or worse, just annoying/crappy RP, enter a room, exa seren, slap seren. Actions should have implications. Ostensibly, the degree of the implications for an action informs the action. Makes one think.

The current hypothesis is that because of all the exp people have gained that they are afraid to engage in PvP or take risks. I think this could be true. What I think everyone is trying to find out, is how much is the right amount of 'pain' for a death to inhibit lousy behaviors, but not make it so much that it inhibits desired behaviors. No effect on PvP ala WoW I don't believe is the answer.

I don't disagree that there should perhaps be some penalty. However, the level of penalty being argued for pretty consistently is not the level that I think many will buy into as new players to the game.

Also, no death penalty / silliness... I'm also not sure is as much of a problem as people think. Take WoW... Sure, there's some griefing... Sometimes you die 4 times and get spawn camped. Sucks a little, but in the long run, there's still some satisfaction as the griefer/good pvper in just asserting dominance. And while maybe annoying, the most I've ever seen someone do over PVP camping is take a break for a couple hours. You can still get a rush in PVP in WoW... There's still the thrill of "yes! we might actually win this bg/this arena/etc." That's the benefit of having a pvp system that A) has achievement rewards / gear rewards and B) a defined system outside of world PVP. Those are changes we can make without having a harsh death penalty. It's also an outlet for people who perhaps really enjoy PVP more than PVE. Imagine if we could get the Freyas, the Sayas, and the Lindroses etc who were PVP demigods back in action with a PVP system they could really enjoy without fear of being slapped down for over-killing.

Like I said, I agree we could have a death penalty that has some penalty yet doesn't drive people away. I'm not arguing for 100% no consequence. But at the same time... I'm not sure no consequence is bad either. After all... We've had no consequence for months now, and it hasn't broken the game. For me, the experience has personally been better.

[Kiara]

While I applaud the will to change things, and coming up with a suggestion that has some good points, I think it's overcomplicating things.

Like someone said earlier... "Why does it has to be so complicated?". I wonder that too.

The current system with recovery is actually pretty weird and complicated. "Death recovery". It really doesnt "fit" with Genesis, where most things have some type of thematic explanation to it. This new suggestion even more complicated, and less "explainable". Hm. I dont know. Why so complex?

Cant we just remove a part of the combat XP when you die. No recovery. Cut away some XP. And thats it. Like it used to be.

Then just balance this ONE variable so the penalty is enough to make you dont actively seek to die, but not that much so you'll quit playing and feel devastated if it happens. (In other words smaller than it is now).

But I also gotta ask:

What is the goal of changing death penalty? What is it we want to achieve by changing it?

If the goal is to get more PVP, I think death penalty isnt really the main problem. Actually I think it's pretty far down that list to be honest. But sure, maybe it can help a little. But keep it simple I say!

[Kas]

While I applaud the will to change things, and coming up with a suggestion that has some good points, I think it's overcomplicating things.

Like someone said earlier... "Why does it has to be so complicated?". I wonder that too.

The current system with recovery is actually pretty weird and complicated. "Death recovery". It really doesnt "fit" with Genesis, where most things have some type of thematic explanation to it. This new suggestion even more complicated, and less "explainable". Hm. I dont know. Why so complex?

Cant we just remove a part of the combat XP when you die. No recovery. Cut away some XP. And thats it. Like it used to be.

Then just balance this ONE variable so the penalty is enough to make you dont actively seek to die, but not that much so you'll quit playing and feel devastated if it happens. (In other words smaller than it is now).

But I also gotta ask:

What is the goal of changing death penalty? What is it we want to achieve by changing it?

If the goal is to get more PVP, I think death penalty isnt really the main problem. Actually I think it's pretty far down that list to be honest. But sure, maybe it can help a little. But keep it simple I say!

I would try something in the range of 5% flat loss on combat xp when dying.

Nothing complicated, and could work well for everyone. It's not that dramatical of a loss as a huge myth (still requires some effort to regain), and trivial for smaller players (as it perhaps should be).

[Windemere]

When you die you stay the exact same size but take 10% penalty in damage dealt and 10% increase in damage taken until you have "recovered" which could be over time or over xp.

Penalty makes you weaker but not smaller. They do that in WoW and other MMOs in respect to death.

Windemere

[gorboth]

Great feedback, everyone. I'll try to respond to some of what I've heard, clarify some things, and offer things to consider.

Firstly, with this proposal, you do not automatically recover in 10 days. No, rather, you recover in 10 days *if* and only if you spend two hours online for ten days in a row. A good system, for me, is one that should encourage people to be in the game, rather than encourage them not to be. A system that punishes people in a way that gives them no reason to play, or such a long hill to climb that they lose heart are what I want to get away from. We won't be going with the suggested idea of halting exp growth for a set time as a death penalty for exactly that reason.

The strange 39 death's thing I said was just bad arithmetic on my part. I'd forgotten the suggestion was 25% initial penalty, and was working from 20% instead. Thus, if you get penalized an additional 2% for any subsequent deaths while the penalty remains active, you'd be down to 2% of your stats after death #39, which is where I suggested we cap the penalty. We wouldn't want to go with a final 2% added on death #40, as this would leave you with 0% of your stats = 0 hitpoints = death cascade. So, to correct that, we would want to allow 37 deaths before instituting the cap on exp reduction. 37 deaths * 2% additional reduction each would equal 74%. Add that to the 25% initial reduction, and we'd have 1% remaining which would be the ideal cap.

I enjoyed reading Amorana's breakdown of the progression from arcade-style death penalties of old to the modern norms of contemporary MMORPGs. I agree that there can be a thrill involved with pvp, regardless of whether or not there is a harsh death penalty attached to a loss. But what I think is important to distinguish here is that in those MMORPGs, the pvp combat is played entirely for sport. You run around, and you have teams, and you have things you want to accomplish, tactics to try, and ways to win the field. If all we wanted to achieve in Genesis was pvp for sport, I agree that might be exactly the sort of thing to emulate. However, in WoW or other similar MMORPG games, there is no sense of gravitas to any situation involving pvp. Roleplay is attempted by some, but all but completely disregarded by the design of the game or the community culture. In Genesis, many players value roleplay, and the game has been designed from day one to support it. Pvp should, as well, and I agree with Celephias and others who believe that gutting pvp of lasting consequences creates a game culture in which you have no recourse against idiotic behavior other than to hope it stops and to try to ignore it, and no interesting manner of revenge against an enemy other than to challenge them to a game of chase-me-around-the-roundabout with the loser not having to pay much of a cost should they die.

Zar seems to have liked the idea the best of all the posters, and his suggestions are really interesting. I don't agree with all of them, but some are worth considering. I really like, for example, the idea of trying to find ways to promote non-idle payment of the sentence. There is a bot for all occasions, though, and I am sure people could create clever scripts to trick any sort of tracking system we might devise. I also like the idea of scaling the penalty so that larger players do not feel the hit less than smaller players. I don't agree with gradual recovery during the period, and I don't agree with pinning the sentence after each subsequent death. I'll talk about this a bit ...

I do not know how players would react to this system, but I know how I feel in my gut about what seems fun to *me* vs. what seems boring or monotonous. I'm the sort of guy who enjoys "delayed gratification" schemes, and would much rather enjoy a huge, awesome boost all of a sudden after serving a sentence of pain than to have things slowly and imperceptibly dialed back up over the course of a period of time. To me, that just feels a lot more fun. I realize this might not be to everyone's liking, but it is what I would want to try out to see how it works, because I think I'm probably right - hey, who am I to question my gut? It's digested entire plates of lutefisk! So, this is my reason for not wanting to have the penalty gradually rise back to normal. I just think it would be more fun and interesting the other way.

As for setting it at a very specific recovery time, that (if you spend 2 hours a day) you escape in 10 days time ... well, I actually think this would be more fun too. Let's say you die, and you just lost 25% of your power. Arrgh. Well, that sucked. But, wait. Now if I die, I'm only going to lose 2%. Hmmm ... Well, in a way that's like a new reality. I don't actually have to fear death all *that* much for the next 10 days. Okay. Cool. Now, lets say I serve out 8 of those days with my 2 hours a day. Now I know I've only got 2 days left on my sentence. What is more, in these last 8 days, I've actually been riding a great exp train getting dragged around by my myth buddies, and know that when I recover, I'll actually be *bigger* than I was when I died 8 days ago. Okay! Cool! Well, lets see ... 2 days ... 2 days ... how to spend them. I could die 10 times in these next 2 days and not even really care! Alllllrighty ... *rolls up sleeves* ... RAAAAAAAWRRR!!

See? That seems fun to me. Sure, one could argue that if you go nuts for those 2 days and do some pvp, you might set yourself up for some hurting when those you wanted to "dance" with decided to keep dancing even after you'd recovered. Sure. But that's always how things go. The idea here is that you never actually lose *any* of your exp ever again by dying. You only lose your stats. If you can pay the time, you get them back. If you exp while you're serving that sentence, you get back bigger than when you lost them.

Now, the most fascinating post of all might have been Zingil's. First of all, he's obviously way too smart, and I suggest a nerf. But, more importantly, he suggested a critically important aspect of the design which would solve numerous problems all at once. Rather than capping the *stats* Zingil suggests capping the *experience* which lurks behind, and therefore determines each stat. Brilliant! Yes yes yes. This is exactly how this build would want to work. Here's why. Firstly, we'd cap the experience. Then, we'd apply the 25% reduction not to the *stat* but to the experience that drives it. In this way, we still work with the soft cap that is in the game, and if we simply apply this to combat and general experience, we could reward players who have quested, too, by keeping that out of the reduction. Secondly, this would solve the one thing that just about everyone seems to have hated the most about this proposal: imbuements. Because imbuement effects work on the stat itself, rather than the experience that drives the stat, the stat imbuements would still work here, and we'd not have that as an added pain to the sentence.

Finally, I want to discuss the fact that some people feel this system is too complex. Lets set our old and this proposed system side-by-side:

Current system:

• When you die, you lose 1/5 of your combat and general experience.
• A "snapshot" is taken of where you were just before death to use as a reference.
• Your brutality, which acts as a filter for how much exp you can get when killing based on the ratio of quest/nonquest exp, is artificially lowered.
• As you earn exp, now much faster thanks to the artificial lowering of your brute, your total exp is compared to that in the snapshot.
• As you travel back toward the snapshot's level, your brutality rises on a pre-set curve that rises faster the closer you get.
• If you die while in this recovery period, you lose 1/5 exp from where you are now, but the original snapshot is still used for recovery.

Proposed system:

• When you die, your stats will be reduced by 25% and capped there.
• You are assigned a sentence of 20 hours of play until this reduction will be removed.
• You can only pay off 2 hours of this sentence each day.
• If you die again while paying your sentence, 2% additional reduction is added to the cap, but the sentence is not extended.

Is that really so complex?

Great stuff! I'll revise the proposal with some of these things in mind. Please continue to discuss - I'll be reading what you write.

G.

[Ydred]

Proposed system:

• When you die, your stats will be reduced by 25% and capped there.
• You are assigned a sentence of 20 hours of play until this reduction will be removed.
• You can only pay off 2 hours of this sentence each day.
• If you die again while paying your sentence, 2% additional reduction is added to the cap, but the sentence is not extended.

Is that really so complex?

Great stuff! I'll revise the proposal with some of these things in mind. Please continue to discuss - I'll be reading what you write.

G.

It is very simple to understand.
But my gut and experience having played a game like this ... it is not for me.

[Zar]

G.

Just one more point:
If you will play with snapshot per stat, how will it work with people changing races?
Or becoming an ogre?

[gorboth]

G.

Just one more point:
If you will play with snapshot per stat, how will it work with people changing races?
Or becoming an ogre?

It will work just fine. The race-modifiers and the ogre modifiers trigger on the stat itself, not the exp behind it.

G.

[Amorana]

I enjoyed reading Amorana's breakdown of the progression from arcade-style death penalties of old to the modern norms of contemporary MMORPGs. I agree that there can be a thrill involved with pvp, regardless of whether or not there is a harsh death penalty attached to a loss. But what I think is important to distinguish here is that in those MMORPGs, the pvp combat is played entirely for sport. You run around, and you have teams, and you have things you want to accomplish, tactics to try, and ways to win the field. If all we wanted to achieve in Genesis was pvp for sport, I agree that might be exactly the sort of thing to emulate. However, in WoW or other similar MMORPG games, there is no sense of gravitas to any situation involving pvp. Roleplay is attempted by some, but all but completely disregarded by the design of the game or the community culture. In Genesis, many players value roleplay, and the game has been designed from day one to support it. Pvp should, as well, and I agree with Celephias and others who believe that gutting pvp of lasting consequences creates a game culture in which you have no recourse against idiotic behavior other than to hope it stops and to try to ignore it, and no interesting manner of revenge against an enemy other than to challenge them to a game of chase-me-around-the-roundabout with the loser not having to pay much of a cost should they die.

With the enormity of trouble there is finding certain items in the realms if you're in a guild that doesn't have a dedicated gear hunter, I think there definitely is something to be said for the penalty of they get all my stuff. There's other penalties that can be looked at - on death you get to steal three imbuement stones from the person's lapidarium, for example. That's a fun reward to death, and something with real consequence. Regardless, I've never disagreed that some penalty is necessary, I just believe (and still continue to after reading your note) that your proposal marks it too high.

I do not know how players would react to this system, but I know how I feel in my gut about what seems fun to *me* vs. what seems boring or monotonous. I'm the sort of guy who enjoys "delayed gratification" schemes, and would much rather enjoy a huge, awesome boost all of a sudden after serving a sentence of pain than to have things slowly and imperceptibly dialed back up over the course of a period of time. To me, that just feels a lot more fun. I realize this might not be to everyone's liking, but it is what I would want to try out to see how it works, because I think I'm probably right - hey, who am I to question my gut? It's digested entire plates of lutefisk! So, this is my reason for not wanting to have the penalty gradually rise back to normal. I just think it would be more fun and interesting the other way.

I'm pretty sure by the reactions to the proposal (a fair amount more negative, in varying levels, than positive) you can see how the general playerbase at large would respond. Whether or not you choose to recognize that's on you though.

As for setting it at a very specific recovery time, that (if you spend 2 hours a day) you escape in 10 days time ... well, I actually think this would be more fun too. Let's say you die, and you just lost 25% of your power. Arrgh. Well, that sucked. But, wait. Now if I die, I'm only going to lose 2%. Hmmm ... Well, in a way that's like a new reality. I don't actually have to fear death all *that* much for the next 10 days. Okay. Cool. Now, lets say I serve out 8 of those days with my 2 hours a day. Now I know I've only got 2 days left on my sentence. What is more, in these last 8 days, I've actually been riding a great exp train getting dragged around by my myth buddies, and know that when I recover, I'll actually be *bigger* than I was when I died 8 days ago. Okay! Cool! Well, lets see ... 2 days ... 2 days ... how to spend them. I could die 10 times in these next 2 days and not even really care! Alllllrighty ... *rolls up sleeves* ... RAAAAAAAWRRR!!

Sure, if you're actually lowering brute. But your proposal doesn't mention lowering brute. So instead, I've got the size of a veteran going around with my myth buddies gaining veteran-level xp at slightly violent. I'm not going to get a "great exp train" under your current proposal. In fact, my xp is going to suck quite a bit. Now if the XP cap that you mention a couple of paragraphs down affects brute, then wonderful. However, again I ask - how does this not get abused? Why once you got to a certain level would you not just die and stay constantly at a lower brute while your friends drag you around for xp gain? This easy abuse for rapid growth is what makes lowering the brute an issue, imo. So you're stuck - either brute stays the same and xp sucks because you're a slightly violent veteran/expert/whatever (essentially, too high of a brute for your present size), or brute is awesome for 10 days and becomes the easy way to abuse the system for rapid growth.

See? That seems fun to me. Sure, one could argue that if you go nuts for those 2 days and do some pvp, you might set yourself up for some hurting when those you wanted to "dance" with decided to keep dancing even after you'd recovered. Sure. But that's always how things go. The idea here is that you never actually lose *any* of your exp ever again by dying. You only lose your stats. If you can pay the time, you get them back. If you exp while you're serving that sentence, you get back bigger than when you lost them.

I'm still interested to hear your opinions on what I wrote about guild PVP. If you have a guild that is currently pretty well suited against another (let's throw out there Mages vs. SS as an example), then mages could go to town and get all the kenders to 75%. And continue to wallop on them repeatedly, while the latter guild has no recourse. How does this help PVP? How does it help guild conflicts be more exciting and intriguing? How is this fun?

Now, the most fascinating post of all might have been Zingil's. First of all, he's obviously way too smart, and I suggest a nerf. But, more importantly, he suggested a critically important aspect of the design which would solve numerous problems all at once. Rather than capping the *stats* Zingil suggests capping the *experience* which lurks behind, and therefore determines each stat. Brilliant! Yes yes yes. This is exactly how this build would want to work. Here's why. Firstly, we'd cap the experience. Then, we'd apply the 25% reduction not to the *stat* but to the experience that drives it. In this way, we still work with the soft cap that is in the game, and if we simply apply this to combat and general experience, we could reward players who have quested, too, by keeping that out of the reduction. Secondly, this would solve the one thing that just about everyone seems to have hated the most about this proposal: imbuements. Because imbuement effects work on the stat itself, rather than the experience that drives the stat, the stat imbuements would still work here, and we'd not have that as an added pain to the sentence.

See above. Just wanted to leave this in here since I reference it earlier.

Finally, I want to discuss the fact that some people feel this system is too complex. Lets set our old and this proposed system side-by-side:

Current system:

• When you die, you lose 1/5 of your combat and general experience.
• A "snapshot" is taken of where you were just before death to use as a reference.
• Your brutality, which acts as a filter for how much exp you can get when killing based on the ratio of quest/nonquest exp, is artificially lowered.
• As you earn exp, now much faster thanks to the artificial lowering of your brute, your total exp is compared to that in the snapshot.
• As you travel back toward the snapshot's level, your brutality rises on a pre-set curve that rises faster the closer you get.
• If you die while in this recovery period, you lose 1/5 exp from where you are now, but the original snapshot is still used for recovery.

Proposed system:

• When you die, your stats will be reduced by 25% and capped there.
• You are assigned a sentence of 20 hours of play until this reduction will be removed.
• You can only pay off 2 hours of this sentence each day.
• If you die again while paying your sentence, 2% additional reduction is added to the cap, but the sentence is not extended.

Is that really so complex?

Great stuff! I'll revise the proposal with some of these things in mind. Please continue to discuss - I'll be reading what you write.

G.

I still prefer the old system to the new. A ten day recovery will drive away new players, hands down. If you die to a rat in Sparkle, that death is made up in minutes under the current system. If you have to wait ten days to recover while your stats are capped at utter novice, you won't log in after your first time dying. And I still believe that to be true through many of the lower levels.