Kiara's quick fix for PVP

[Kiara]

The game has no need to be balanced in PVE. Who cares what another player can do that way? I certainly don't care what a player can do against another NPC.

Why should you?

Uh... yeah... thats a strange question.

How about....

...say guild X can kill all trolls in Mithas solo in 30 minutes... the members of that guild will gain experience at a considerably higher rate than anyone else. This does not only lead to them becoming huge much quicker than anyone else and thus gain a big PVP advantage, it also will make that guild extremely attractive to join, while others who are much less powerful will have serious trouble attracting people.

For me it's obvious guilds in Genesis need to be fairly equal power-wise BOTH in PVE and PVP.

But yeah, obviously only big differences will be noticeable in PVE, while even fairly small ones will be in PVP. So it's probably more important in PVP. Which this thread is about in the first place. But I think if you have balanced guilds in PVP there probably wont be any big issues PVE either...

[Mersereau]

The game has no need to be balanced in PVE. Who cares what another player can do that way? I certainly don't care what a player can do against another NPC.

Why should you?

Uh... yeah... thats a strange question.

How about....

...say guild X can kill all trolls in Mithas solo in 30 minutes... the members of that guild will gain experience at a considerably higher rate than anyone else. This does not only lead to them becoming huge much quicker than anyone else and thus gain a big PVP advantage, it also will make that guild extremely attractive to join, while others who are much less powerful will have serious trouble attracting people.

For me it's obvious guilds in Genesis need to be fairly equal power-wise BOTH in PVE and PVP.

But yeah, obviously only big differences will be noticeable in PVE, while even fairly small ones will be in PVP. So it's probably more important in PVP. Which this thread is about in the first place. But I think if you have balanced guilds in PVP there probably wont be any big issues PVE either...

Such a guild would probably pay 90% tax. It would be powerful yes, but you wouldn't grow much at all.

The only issue to another player would be what that guild can do to them in a PVP setting.

[Kiara]

The game has no need to be balanced in PVE. Who cares what another player can do that way? I certainly don't care what a player can do against another NPC.

Why should you?

Uh... yeah... thats a strange question.

How about....

...say guild X can kill all trolls in Mithas solo in 30 minutes... the members of that guild will gain experience at a considerably higher rate than anyone else. This does not only lead to them becoming huge much quicker than anyone else and thus gain a big PVP advantage, it also will make that guild extremely attractive to join, while others who are much less powerful will have serious trouble attracting people.

For me it's obvious guilds in Genesis need to be fairly equal power-wise BOTH in PVE and PVP.

But yeah, obviously only big differences will be noticeable in PVE, while even fairly small ones will be in PVP. So it's probably more important in PVP. Which this thread is about in the first place. But I think if you have balanced guilds in PVP there probably wont be any big issues PVE either...

Such a guild would probably pay 90% tax. It would be powerful yes, but you wouldn't grow much at all.

The only issue to another player would be what that guild can do to them in a PVP setting.

If it has 90% tax it IS balanced in PVE. Which was all I said. Guilds should be balanced PVP _and_ PVE. And with 90% tax that guild killing the trolls is probably balanced PVE, which is fine I guess. But then you leave yourself a real problem when balancing PVP.

I would prefer the whole idea of tax is thrown in the garbage though... since that would make it much easier to balance both PVP and PVE at the same time. What history has shown is that with the tax system, some guilds are great for grinding in, others great for PVP. So you grind in one guild, then switch to the powerful guild you really wanted to join when you're already big. Then suicide down, get some quick GXP thanks to the recovery system, and voila.

But removing tax doesn't really work with my "quick fix" ideas. So thats another discussion.

The tax system will make PVP imbalanced though. That's just the nature of it. Which is kinda too bad. But all I want is mainly to have guilds more balanced in PVP than they are now, and for that I think my original ideas in the first post in this thread would work pretty good. It wont be perfect, but hopefully much better at least.

[Makfly]

The game has no need to be balanced in PVE. Who cares what another player can do that way? I certainly don't care what a player can do against another NPC.

Why should you?

Should that not be obvious?
PvE -> leads to stats, gear, trinkets, imbuements, money -> leads to advantages in PvP -> leads to unbalanced PvP.
Of course all guilds _should_ be balanced in PvE. PvE and PvP are inseparable as the game is currently set up.

Your counterargument is just silly, and you know better.

Such a guild would probably pay 90% tax. It would be powerful yes, but you wouldn't grow much at all.
The only issue to another player would be what that guild can do to them in a PVP setting.

Grow via scripts in a low tax guild in relatively obscurity, then join the PvP and wreck havoc. It's been done, with negative effects for the game, and you ought to know of this as well.
That is not to mention it seems quite a few current players are of the Achiever-kind and like to compete in the ranks about who has the highest stats and whatever.
But really, bottom line is that aiming for no PvE balance at all is just stupid from a game design point of view.



Still nobody seem to know which model is used for balacing.
Is it the sissor, paper, stone (undead beat fighter beats cleric beats undead)?
Or is it all OCC guilds balanced against each other, or is it based off of a tax percentage that can be very different from OCC to OCC guild, or is it simply done based off of an individual assesment from the AoB and what seems to fit in the Admins vision of the game they want to create?
Who knows?
This talk of balance and guild recodes is fine, but we are talking from a point of ignorance until the Admin actually explains what models are being used, and their vision for a balance in Genesis.

[Zhar]

I guess the only solution here is that when you reach myth you automatically join Secret Society and can't switch guilds any more

[Kiara]

I guess the only solution here is that when you reach myth you automatically join Secret Society and can't switch guilds any more

That could actually work since in reality it would mean a cap at legend.

[Chanele]

I suggest a hard cap when you reach supreme in a stat.

Pros:

-Stat difference, one problem today is the ability to focus on one stat from veteran to super myth. For example: Mega supreme constitution as a tank, mega supreme intelligence as a caster is something that even further widen the gap between small and large players.

-Race balance, the bonuses for races will only apply at small levels and in end game all races will be even.

-Supreme in all stats is still a goal that is hard to reach for almost anyone (exception for hardcore scripters) and will still work as a challenge for the achiever type of player.

-This will also make it easier to balance guilds when you actually know what maximum damage/defensive output will be.

Cons:

-Super grinders might leave, but honestly will they be missed? Unresponsive bots who clears all killing grounds is more damaging then another count on total players awake, in my eyes atleast.


To be sure Mersereau and others who have build their characters with such "hard work" gets rewarded, I would suggest following:

Lets say supreme is an avarage of 100. For every extra 10 avarage point the player would get 1-5 skill points to distribute as they want. This will give all "hardworkers" an edge but not as redicolous as today. Calculating with avarage will also take race modifiers in calculations so no race will suffer.

Feel free to cut this idea in pieces.

Ps, most people know exact numbers but I used fictional to keep the moderating police away.

[Zhar]

Supreme is too big. No new player will ever want to wait years to be able to reach max level, let alone compete with people. This is a way to balance the game, it isn't the way to grow it.

[Mersereau]

The game has no need to be balanced in PVE. Who cares what another player can do that way? I certainly don't care what a player can do against another NPC.

Why should you?

Should that not be obvious?
PvE -> leads to stats, gear, trinkets, imbuements, money -> leads to advantages in PvP -> leads to unbalanced PvP.
Of course all guilds _should_ be balanced in PvE. PvE and PvP are inseparable as the game is currently set up.

Your counterargument is just silly, and you know better.

Such a guild would probably pay 90% tax. It would be powerful yes, but you wouldn't grow much at all.
The only issue to another player would be what that guild can do to them in a PVP setting.

Grow via scripts in a low tax guild in relatively obscurity, then join the PvP and wreck havoc. It's been done, with negative effects for the game, and you ought to know of this as well.
That is not to mention it seems quite a few current players are of the Achiever-kind and like to compete in the ranks about who has the highest stats and whatever.
But really, bottom line is that aiming for no PvE balance at all is just stupid from a game design point of view.

You and I will never see eye to eye, you've always given the appearance Genesis should merely be a RP chat-line with emotes.

If you separate PVE vs PVP, I state again, how does how powerful does anything matter if they aren't using unbalanced abilities, stats, weapons, armours against you?

[Mersereau]

Supreme is too big. No new player will ever want to wait years to be able to reach max level, let alone compete with people. This is a way to balance the game, it isn't the way to grow it.

Once again your stance is to play whack-a-mole on existing players. Why not boost smaller players?