Keeping your titles and basing them differently ...

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Having read the note below, I think the idea sounds:

... worth a try, let's test it for a month.
38
72%
... like a mistake. Don't do it.
15
28%
 
Total votes: 53

Creed

Re: Keeping your titles and basing them differently ...

Post by Creed » 18 Apr 2015 09:41

i like it.

and i dont think it is a problem for the myth++ people..
due to their even bigger stats their chances of survival are bigger.
also, it would mean that if you choose to grind insanely, after myth, you will just have more to lose later.

in my eyes, end gameplay ought to have more rp and pvp and less grind
which isnt that easy, since you need to grind to get imbuements

but in general i like the idea, and also with the added benefit of the "deal with death room".

Aristos
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Re: Keeping your titles and basing them differently ...

Post by Aristos » 18 Apr 2015 11:48

First of all, I like the innovative idea and welcome the trial period.

Maybe it'll be something good, maybe it won't. Worth a try.

For one, I do like the idea of having "reached" something (a mortal level) and keeping it. It reflects the work you put into a character and the actual time spent playing in an encouraging way - at least for the new people joining us. Rp-wise, if a character has reached the status of being a legend in the realms, it doesn't make sense to lose this status and become a rising hero, for example. How can he rise to be a hero? He was already a legend!

I also like the idea of a mortal level being based on xp instead of stat average, since most of us really don't level with average stats. This could also mean, though, that reaching new mortal levels might be easier, a change that I welcome when I have newbies in mind since it makes it faster and easier for them to have a feeling of accomplishment.

If a newbie works hard and reaches veteran, then tries some of the deadly quests, or makes a wrong turn and wakes up dead (Here's looking at you, Flotsam!), it might be disencouraging since now, before he attempts the quest again, he'll have to gain back the levels so he can fight through the mobs, if there are any, or maybe he'll just be discouraged with this quest or in general because he doesn't want to lose one or two months of work (in newbie terms, I know experienced people with friends can do it in a day).

Regaining lost exp due to death hasn't been a problem, at least in my limited experience. At the beginning it can be hard, but it actually brings some benefits with it, guild exp and stat refocusing being two of them. We'd lose a bit here since, if I understand correctly, a big player with a high brute couldn't bring it down to a level where he'd gain gexp and more or less refactor his toon to his new home. It would, on the one hand, make players stick to their home, which is good, but it could also backfire.

The guild exp problem could be perhaps solved by brute affecting only the combat experience of the player and not the amoutn of experience gained "for" the guild? So that regardless of your brute and the combat experience you earn, the amount of experience invested in gexp would be tax-free, more or less. I think Petros has done something similar in his recodes.

This "nothing to lose" status in pvp would make pvp more fun, yes, but it's not entirely "nothing to lose". You'd still lose your equipment and any coins you had on you that weren't in your rich man's purse. That's not bad at all, since we do need to "feel" death in some way. It has to hurt, at least a bit. If it doesn't hurt in some way, it damages rp. Why? Because we end up with this scenario:

Player A kills player B.
Player B revives in Sparkle and goes back to player A and engages him again.
Player A kills player B again.
Player B revives in Sparkle and goes back to player A and engages him again.
Player A kills player B again...

Eventually, he might get player A to die, maybe because his sword has dulled, or because he ran out of mana, or some other reason.

What I'm saying is that, in a way, it erases the time that has to be spent regaining something before a new fight can break out. It could lead to perpetual fighting and a state of never being able to play at ease.

At the moment, death pauses the conflict because of the stats loss (if player B couldn't kill player A before, how could he now that he's weaker?)

With this system, the only way death could put a pause between fights is the loss of equipment.

Anyways, just my two copper.

EDIT: Grammar

Mortis

Re: Keeping your titles and basing them differently ...

Post by Mortis » 18 Apr 2015 14:55

No. I disagree with the premise. Death should always hurt and discourage pvp. That's a big part of why many people engage in roleplay first.

This proposal is highly abuse-able. You will create groups of players with nothing to lose who become empowered to grief and groups of players with just as much to lose as before.

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Re: Keeping your titles and basing them differently ...

Post by Mirandus » 18 Apr 2015 15:10

I like this idea,

It gives the opportunity for those who are smaller than an enemy to join up in an attempt to take retribution on him/her without such a huge potential loss. It increases the potential for PvP and could allow for some cool PvP specific mechanics to come into play.

As for griefing, that is against the rules and if it happens the AoP will step in and stop it. The potential for abuse I'm not really seeing. When you die, you have a threshold at which you stop. If you keep dying you stay at base champ and never grow. It still hurts, every death will hurt. No one wants to be stuck at champion or legend forever. Roleplay will still continue and in fact this will allow for more RP opportunities. Take a Sword Knight for example. They are never supposed to flee a battle. Now, a sword knight can do so because they know they have that threshold there to act as a buffer.

This also will help our new players. Dying is something that occurs often and it is disheartening to be very small and accidentally get killed only to see all that progress you may have made (with a friend whom with which you teamed perhaps) go away. Now when they hit that threshold they will stay there and it feels a bit more like a concrete goal instead of a floating line.

We are also talking about testing this, not implementing it permanently. To have concerns is natural and even more reason to try it out. There is NO loss in trying this as we did the death vacation.

Lets go for it.

Aristos
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Re: Keeping your titles and basing them differently ...

Post by Aristos » 18 Apr 2015 15:30

Mirandus wrote:I like this idea,

It gives the opportunity for those who are smaller than an enemy to join up in an attempt to take retribution on him/her without such a huge potential loss. It increases the potential for PvP and could allow for some cool PvP specific mechanics to come into play.

As for griefing, that is against the rules and if it happens the AoP will step in and stop it. The potential for abuse I'm not really seeing. When you die, you have a threshold at which you stop. If you keep dying you stay at base champ and never grow. It still hurts, every death will hurt. No one wants to be stuck at champion or legend forever. Roleplay will still continue and in fact this will allow for more RP opportunities. Take a Sword Knight for example. They are never supposed to flee a battle. Now, a sword knight can do so because they know they have that threshold there to act as a buffer.

This also will help our new players. Dying is something that occurs often and it is disheartening to be very small and accidentally get killed only to see all that progress you may have made (with a friend whom with which you teamed perhaps) go away. Now when they hit that threshold they will stay there and it feels a bit more like a concrete goal instead of a floating line.

We are also talking about testing this, not implementing it permanently. To have concerns is natural and even more reason to try it out. There is NO loss in trying this as we did the death vacation.

Lets go for it.
This.

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Avarel
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Re: Keeping your titles and basing them differently ...

Post by Avarel » 18 Apr 2015 18:31

I have to agree with Mortis on this. Seems to be highly abusable. You create a group of players to which griefing comes at no cost. And yes, I know griefing is against the rules and the AOP will eventually step in, but that requires that the targeted player be griefed first, repeatedly killed. Unless you want the create a wizard police force monitoring the game constantly for even the smallest sign of abuse. Seems to me if we can't do that for botting, we sure can't do it from griefing.
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Drip
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Re: Keeping your titles and basing them differently ...

Post by Drip » 18 Apr 2015 18:38

Dying by "natural causes" (drowning, killed by monsters, poison) has a different exp penalty then from being killed by a player.
And a immunity period after death that other people can't attack you for.... half an hour?
(if you don't understand what I've written, assume I have bad wording)

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gorboth
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Re: Keeping your titles and basing them differently ...

Post by gorboth » 18 Apr 2015 18:38

Excellent posts, everyone. All great food for thought. It is indeed important to remember that what is being proposed is a test, not a permanent change. The "death vacation" test is proof that such a proposal is not a ruse for implementing things under the guise of being a test. That one didn't improve the game so we didn't keep it. If this one doesn't improve the game in enough people's opinion, we would not keep it.

The one argument that I have heard that speaks effectively against doing this, is the premise that "death should always hurt." As Mortis states, that acts as a deterrent to pvp. He also states that it encourages roleplay as a first resort. I question this. From my observation, it instead encourages isolationism and cowardice more than roleplay. I do believe, however, that threshholds remove from pvp the "tool" of using death as a punishment in so extreme a way, which very much does (ideally) involve roleplay.

Please do not feel afraid to change your vote, either for or against, as arguments make sense to you.

G.
Mmmmmm ... pie ...

Drip
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Re: Keeping your titles and basing them differently ...

Post by Drip » 18 Apr 2015 18:55

It's either hoarding rare stuff and grinding and scripts, or RP and dying with good items so they are actually hard to get again.
The limit of the growth for a mortal keeps getting higher.
(if you don't understand what I've written, assume I have bad wording)

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Avarel
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Re: Keeping your titles and basing them differently ...

Post by Avarel » 18 Apr 2015 19:20

Perhaps I should clarify my post above. I agree that the idea should be tested for a limited period of time, but keep in mind the potential for abuse, and think hard about how to counter it, before you even consider implementing the idea on a permanent basis.

That being said, go for it. Implement the test to see if it improves the game.

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