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Invis 
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Adventurer

Joined: 23 Nov 2017 03:45
Posts: 95
My problem with invis harassment is that sometimes people want to RP being assholes. And I should be able to RP getting rid of them.

Having no obvious manner to reveal them while they are being asses, that is a problem.

Yes, I can report to AoP, and I will, if person in question keeps it up, but that feels "cheap", it is an OOC solution to an IC problem.


03 Jan 2018 19:28
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Adept

Joined: 30 Aug 2017 19:55
Posts: 134
Alteor wrote:
My problem with invis harassment is that sometimes people want to RP being assholes. And I should be able to RP getting rid of them.

Having no obvious manner to reveal them while they are being asses, that is a problem.

Yes, I can report to AoP, and I will, if person in question keeps it up, but that feels "cheap", it is an OOC solution to an IC problem.


Again there ARE ways to reveal and invis person. Find them out in game. There shouldnt be obvious ways to counter a mages spell. Otherwise there is no point in having the spell in the first place.


03 Jan 2018 19:38
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Adventurer

Joined: 23 Nov 2017 03:45
Posts: 95
Greneth wrote:
Alteor wrote:
My problem with invis harassment is that sometimes people want to RP being assholes. And I should be able to RP getting rid of them.

Having no obvious manner to reveal them while they are being asses, that is a problem.

Yes, I can report to AoP, and I will, if person in question keeps it up, but that feels "cheap", it is an OOC solution to an IC problem.


Again there ARE ways to reveal and invis person. Find them out in game. There shouldnt be obvious ways to counter a mages spell. Otherwise there is no point in having the spell in the first place.


Yeah, I found out a mask by a Myth NPC can do that.

Or a Major spell.

Or... again, I am only Veteran now, and often I die and drop back to GA.

Glimmerroot even if it existed only in one room, as long it is a room I can reach as GA, then at least is something that can be done, even if I have to go out of my way to get it.


03 Jan 2018 20:38
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Rising Hero

Joined: 27 Jun 2011 13:20
Posts: 371
Greneth wrote:
Alteor wrote:
My problem with invis harassment is that sometimes people want to RP being assholes. And I should be able to RP getting rid of them.

Having no obvious manner to reveal them while they are being asses, that is a problem.

Yes, I can report to AoP, and I will, if person in question keeps it up, but that feels "cheap", it is an OOC solution to an IC problem.


There shouldnt be obvious ways to counter a mages spell. Otherwise there is no point in having the spell in the first place.


Let me get this right. There should be no counter to a spell that is highly abusive for thieves/harassers and can be learned by pretty much anyone in a free-for-all guild? I was starting to suspect 200+k gobbles affected my sanity in a bad way, looking at this it seems I'm not the only one :D


03 Jan 2018 21:30
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Adept

Joined: 30 Aug 2017 19:55
Posts: 134
mallor wrote:
Greneth wrote:
Alteor wrote:
My problem with invis harassment is that sometimes people want to RP being assholes. And I should be able to RP getting rid of them.

Having no obvious manner to reveal them while they are being asses, that is a problem.

Yes, I can report to AoP, and I will, if person in question keeps it up, but that feels "cheap", it is an OOC solution to an IC problem.


There shouldnt be obvious ways to counter a mages spell. Otherwise there is no point in having the spell in the first place.


Let me get this right. There should be no counter to a spell that is highly abusive for thieves/harassers and can be learned by pretty much anyone in a free-for-all guild? I was starting to suspect 200+k gobbles affected my sanity in a bad way, looking at this it seems I'm not the only one :D


I didnt say no counter, I said there shouldn't be obvious ways quit putting words in my mouth. If it's going to be obvious and easy to obtain, then what is the point of paying tax on the spell in the first place? And again, all of this is over people upset that they can't see who is talking shit. Which, I'm sorry peoples feelers are getting hurt. Not an excuse to nerf a spell. People want to add a herb that completely reveals someone, you want it in just one room?

1 room, 3 herbs. 20-30 min CD. At the least thats 6 herbs every hour or 144 a day that can end up in circulation. It just takes 1 herb to reveal someone, if you think people won't bot the herb I'll gladly point out all the other herbs that get botted. 1 Week = 1,008 herbs that can make invis spell worthless. Doesn't matter if it's one room or 15 rooms. The difference with Kuko is it just improves the "chance" to see it doesn't give you 100% success and is on a short timer. People want more items to reveal Invis, sure. That doesn't mean you slap it on a herb that any novice can find or put it in the loot drop of sparkle rats.


03 Jan 2018 22:09
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Rising Hero

Joined: 27 Jun 2011 13:20
Posts: 371
Tax is payed for caid, invis obviously doesn't give any caid , since it drops in combat, so how can you know they pay tax for it? If you apply the same logic to thieves and auto sneak there should be no obvious counters for it as well, but there is, called awareness.


03 Jan 2018 22:23
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Wizard
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Joined: 22 Sep 2014 13:15
Posts: 400
mallor wrote:
Tax is payed for caid, invis obviously doesn't give any caid , since it drops in combat, so how can you know they pay tax for it? If you apply the same logic to thieves and auto sneak there should be no obvious counters for it as well, but there is, called awareness.


All spells pay tax.

On invisibility, there are counters for it and there are new counters in the works. Some easier to get for some guilds than others. Much like awareness levels... not all guilds get good awareness, making it harder for some than others to counter stealth.

As for a herb for revealing invisibility? I am in agreement with Greneth on that one... that is too simple a counter, and it would provide a very easily attained ability that some guilds pay tax for.

I'd probably be more inclined to consider expanding the tracking skill so it offered some chance of invisibility detection and possibly the ability to reveal/attack for advanced tracking levels... although not sure what the rest of the admin or community think of such a change. A thought bubble thrown out there :)


04 Jan 2018 00:08
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Adept

Joined: 30 Aug 2017 19:55
Posts: 134
mallor wrote:
Tax is payed for caid, invis obviously doesn't give any caid , since it drops in combat, so how can you know they pay tax for it? If you apply the same logic to thieves and auto sneak there should be no obvious counters for it as well, but there is, called awareness.


Do you know for a fact that any guild ability or spell that doesn't provide combat aid isn't factored in Tax? Cause I'm pretty sure that's not 100% true, could be wrong but I'm putting my money on no. And even if it doesn't provide direct aid while in combat, much like Goldbezie pointed out it can give you the drop on someone, which can be more useful then another damage spell.

And sure, apply it to Thieves all you want. With Sup Guru Sneak/Hide it doesn't matter what your base awareness is. You'll never find them without grabbing specialized gear to improve awareness. You're comparing something that is based on a % to see with something that is either you see it or you don't. So again, if you want to find someone Invis or Hidden. You need specialized gear, which is available out there.

I mean this is like me pointing out that Minotaurs can hook people and toss them and there is absolutely nothing that can be done about it since it's an emote. Should that get removed?

Rangers can drop brawl, there is no counter unless you're a club user. Should that get removed?

There is no counter for everyone to block dragonfear, should that get removed?

There is no counter for when a Grunt throws shit at you, should that get removed?

I can't stop custard pies from being thrown at me, should that get removed?

Can't counter armour breaking abilities, we should remove those as well.

I say we make one giant list of all the shit in game that doesn't have a counter. Emotes, NPC Specials, Guild Specials, Items. Then we can all sit down together and come up with even more items to counter every single one of them.


04 Jan 2018 00:21
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Myth

Joined: 08 Mar 2010 19:50
Posts: 1334
Location: Kristiansund, Norway
Arman wrote:
mallor wrote:
Tax is payed for caid, invis obviously doesn't give any caid , since it drops in combat, so how can you know they pay tax for it? If you apply the same logic to thieves and auto sneak there should be no obvious counters for it as well, but there is, called awareness.


All spells pay tax.

On invisibility, there are counters for it and there are new counters in the works. Some easier to get for some guilds than others. Much like awareness levels... not all guilds get good awareness, making it harder for some than others to counter stealth.

As for a herb for revealing invisibility? I am in agreement with Greneth on that one... that is too simple a counter, and it would provide a very easily attained ability that some guilds pay tax for.

I'd probably be more inclined to consider expanding the tracking skill so it offered some chance of invisibility detection and possibly the ability to reveal/attack for advanced tracking levels... although not sure what the rest of the admin or community think of such a change. A thought bubble thrown out there :)



Actually.
Why not add that to Blindfighting instead?
Makes more sense, and gives it an actual purpose :)

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04 Jan 2018 06:57
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Rising Hero

Joined: 27 Jun 2011 13:20
Posts: 371
Greneth wrote:
Do you know for a fact that any guild ability or spell that doesn't provide combat aid isn't factored in Tax? Cause I'm pretty sure that's not 100% true, could be wrong but I'm putting my money on no. And even if it doesn't provide direct aid while in combat, much like Goldbezie pointed out it can give you the drop on someone, which can be more useful then another damage spell.


I do recall extensive drama over last nerf of BDA, in which it was mentioned (although I didn't find a confirmation) that move behind doesn't cost caid.

Greneth wrote:
And sure, apply it to Thieves all you want. With Sup Guru Sneak/Hide it doesn't matter what your base awareness is. You'll never find them without grabbing specialized gear to improve awareness. You're comparing something that is based on a % to see with something that is either you see it or you don't. So again, if you want to find someone Invis or Hidden. You need specialized gear, which is available out there.


You're involving another OCC guild here though, just as you can get 100 sneak, anyone else can get 100 awareness as well. If you're still invisible to someone with 100 awareness with 100 sneak then it's idiotic and needs to be fixed.

Greneth wrote:
I mean this is like me pointing out that Minotaurs can hook people and toss them and there is absolutely nothing that can be done about it since it's an emote. Should that get removed?


Everything has consequence, I can do it to you and I can do it to Morrison, the results will be quite different, so I would say there's a counter to it in form of "kill" command. When you're invis however, consequences are what exactly? Right, none.

Greneth wrote:
Rangers can drop brawl, there is no counter unless you're a club user. Should that get removed?


Let us try an expert try to droprbrawl me and see how it goes, so there's a counter in form of a stat.

Greneth wrote:
There is no counter for everyone to block dragonfear, should that get removed?


Wrong again, I'm yet to see someone who is not a knight to resist it completely, but the paralysis part is quite resistible, and once again it's all about stats, not sure which stat exactly, but bigger people do not tend to be paralyzed by dfear, while smaller do. I'm all for giving people with high DIS complete immunity.

Greneth wrote:
There is no counter for when a Grunt throws shit at you, should that get removed?
I can't stop custard pies from being thrown at me, should that get removed?


It's amazing how many things "kill" command counters, right? :D

Greneth wrote:
Can't counter armour breaking abilities, we should remove those as well.


Sure can. Spells can be resisted, normal abilities need to land first to break something, weapons like maul need to hit, so DEX, cover, block, stagger, dodge, special blockers, etc.

Greneth wrote:
I say we make one giant list of all the shit in game that doesn't have a counter. Emotes, NPC Specials, Guild Specials, Items. Then we can all sit down together and come up with even more items to counter every single one of them.


You're kinda missing the main point here, once in invis all that has no consequence, hence no "counter". Once in plain sight all those have an easy "counter" in form of consequence to your actions. So as there's resist to spells, or ways to see hidden people, there should be a similar way of seeing invis people, and I don't mean killing a huge ass NPC with 0.0001% drop of an item you then need to wear to be able to see invis, and don't even get me started on why minos can't wear MASKS. So it can be a skill or spell/ability that does that, implementation details don't really matter. Maybe not as simple as eating a herb, but definitely not as hard as killing Vermi 1000 times.


04 Jan 2018 09:41
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