Guilds of Genesis

Only validated game players have access in this forum. Use this forum to discuss guilds. Note that as a general rule, guild abilities should not be revealed.
Forum rules
- Use common sense and be respectful towards each other at all times, even when disagreeing.
- Do not reveal sensitive game information. Guild secrets, player seconds are examples of things not allowed.
Amberlee
Myth
Posts: 1445
Joined: 08 Mar 2010 19:50
Location: Kristiansund, Norway

Re: Guilds of Genesis

Post by Amberlee » 19 Jul 2018 06:10

Draugor wrote:Suppose we'll see tons of valars in Mithas, and only mithas then :P Not like they are usefull anywhere else for the big ones. Hell not even alot of small grinders that are outdoors

My point exactly.
The views posted by me on this forum is not the views of the character Amberlee in-game.
If you ask for my opinion here, you will get MY opinion, not that of my character.

Draugor
Myth
Posts: 1786
Joined: 06 Mar 2012 00:14

Re: Guilds of Genesis

Post by Draugor » 19 Jul 2018 06:15

Arman wrote:
Seeing I recoded the Heralds I can tell you. Lots of reasons.

Lore and thematics are a big one. Read your help files... it isn't your speed you are boosting, its your mount. Also potentially being the best quickness spell in the game it needs a catch. Power vs convenience.
Well the issue would be this, if you cant mount in the good grinders, you cant use it, so that leaves mithas as I highly doubt that valars will be running Quali :P Most good grinders are indoors, plains? Well unless the other side plays the plainsgame you can only grind your own mobs, and the reward aint that uber tbh from plains. For now atleast I know you're cooking something weird up regarding them.

As for pvp? Most is again, indoors since people tend to gang eachother in the grinders.

I'm sorry but I see the design as a gigantic flaw, suspecting its heavily taxed for making one grindarea viable aswell :P If we're gonna make alot more of the outdoor only restricted abilities, we'll need alot more outdoor areas :P

User avatar
Ody
Hero
Posts: 395
Joined: 18 Apr 2015 03:28
Location: Vingaard Keep

Re: Guilds of Genesis

Post by Ody » 19 Jul 2018 06:17

Simple fix: If you did it for thematics than keep it cast on the horse, but don't make it break when you dismount. Sure. Make it only a boost when mounted, but keep the spell going when you dismount. Otherwise you're going to burn through components pointlessly.
All I am is your Van Gogh; I paint our dreams on the golden coast
I stay up high, flying solo; Don't come too close
I just ghost
I told you I am the new Poe; I sold my soul to the radio
I steal your heart in the shadows; Don't come too close
I just ghost

Draugor
Myth
Posts: 1786
Joined: 06 Mar 2012 00:14

Re: Guilds of Genesis

Post by Draugor » 19 Jul 2018 06:22

Ody wrote:Simple fix: If you did it for thematics than keep it cast on the horse, but don't make it break when you dismount. Sure. Make it only a boost when mounted, but keep the spell going when you dismount. Otherwise you're going to burn through components pointlessly.

Well he explained it above, you're not hasting yourself, you're hasting your mount :P

Thing is, even if you have a 1-shot-you-die button that only works in 1 room, its still useless regardless of its immense power :P

Thoru
Greenhorne
Posts: 6
Joined: 08 May 2017 05:34

Re: Guilds of Genesis

Post by Thoru » 19 Jul 2018 06:29

Ody wrote:Simple fix: If you did it for thematics than keep it cast on the horse, but don't make it break when you dismount. Sure. Make it only a boost when mounted, but keep the spell going when you dismount. Otherwise you're going to burn through components pointlessly.
This. I get the thematics, and enjoy it. But if its caste on the mount, then it could stay for the duration or until the steed is returned/dismissed. The limits on where horses can go are already a cost for power. More for some, less for others.

If the mount is the one being hasted, it shouldn't matter if I get out of the saddle or not. He/she still retains the haste regardless of rider. Going with lore, the mount was not less fast without his rider. To my knowledge anyway.

Amberlee
Myth
Posts: 1445
Joined: 08 Mar 2010 19:50
Location: Kristiansund, Norway

Re: Guilds of Genesis

Post by Amberlee » 19 Jul 2018 06:38

Regardless of thematics.
Like Draugor said, what point is there to an ability if you can only use it one place.. And that's the place you don't need it?
The fact you have other good powers is a non argument.

And Arman.
Don't try the "Ad Hominem" here.
By resorting to that, you lose the argument and making your point nil and void.

As for my alleged entitlement, that would imply I expect special treatment.
This is not what I am after.
I am after the state of balance, where both sides have access to the same things with the same limitations or lack there of.
The views posted by me on this forum is not the views of the character Amberlee in-game.
If you ask for my opinion here, you will get MY opinion, not that of my character.

Zugzug
Veteran
Posts: 233
Joined: 20 May 2017 15:25

Re: Guilds of Genesis

Post by Zugzug » 19 Jul 2018 10:57

*Grabs popcorn*

Wait, are we doing the inside/outside argument again and talking about horses??? How did I miss this???

I think Valars are lucky that they can now get to use the full benefit of their guild (speed on horse, is it?) in key boss locations that otherwise are not accessible by steeds. That is what I call bad design. I think complaining further about this will result in a "le Cotillion fix" :rofl:

edit:typo

User avatar
Arman
Wizard
Posts: 608
Joined: 22 Sep 2014 13:15

Re: Guilds of Genesis

Post by Arman » 19 Jul 2018 11:48

Greneth wrote:
The issue becomes he has she has and EW set the bar so high that anything else fails to measure up. I look at Warlocks now and it's costing people platinum coins left and right while an EW spell component is extremely common and littered all over the moors right next to their guild hall for the same spell.
If that is the case, and a good case needs to be brought to my attention, then this is something that I will take action to address. For magic guilds, there are a number of key principles that need to be met. I don't know if I have publicly raised it before, but i'll articulate it here so you understand my position:

*** PRINCIPLE 1: The additional combat aid benefit that magic guilds have
*** over other guilds needs to be balanced with appropriate
*** drawbacks.

*** PRINCIPLE 2: At a minimum, magic guilds drawbacks need to
*** take into consideration mana usage, component requirements
*** for their spells, and melee combat vulnerability. These drawbacks
*** are more pronounced for occupational guilds.

*** PRINCIPLE 3: Powerful magic is reserved for occupational magic guilds.
*** Layman guilds are dabbler classes, and are to provide
*** support to an occupation.

*** PRINCIPLE 4: When developing a magic guild the distinction of class
*** needs to be clear. In general, Mage classes are strong
*** offensive with no healing abilities, while clerical
*** classes have access to healing magicks

These are the principles I consider when I build and review magic guilds. The concern you have raised hits on principles 1 and 2. Now, this can be subjective and perception of drawbacks may not be obvious to non-members... members are definitely not going to make them public knowledge! It is part of the mystery of magic. BUT there has to be drawbacks.

If you genuinely think a guild does not align with these principles, put a case forward to me and I will (caveat) investigate. Make it a strong case, for my caveat is if you waste my time I 'red card' you and consider future cases as scuttlebutt. Boy who cried wolf kind of thing.
Greneth wrote: So while I agree with your line of thinking that drawbacks should be in place it's really hard to justify as long as one of the most controversial magical laymans for over the past decade has literally had none. And that's not crying it's just a simple factual comparison.
I love factual comparisons. Especially when I hold all the guild data. Having said that, mortals have an ingenious habit of getting around intended restrictions. So again, bring anything you think breaks the principles i've outlined above to my attention.
Greneth wrote: The other issue is much the same when you use lore as an argument in a game that is not roleplay enforced, has things like Morgul Mages? Dragon Armies that are restricted to one weapon type, Angmar Armies that are tanks which can only move behind other tanks, Gladiators that only know how to use axes, Hobbits tanking Dragons and slaying them with weapons such as Wyrmslayer that is about twice as long as them while wearing a deathplate that somehow now fits them from a giant Death Knight... I mean you can go on and on with the discrepancies. I've no idea what the Heralds get now but I agree with Amberlee, usability and mechanics should always come first and the lore wrapped around it to give it flavor.
Sorry, lore and thematics are king. We are a game of narrative, not min/maxxing. There are boundaries which I police... but while we have a Keeper who pushes those boundaries with everything he creates (which I love) that is always going to trump equalisation. Agreed, usability and mechanics are very important... but you have to be understanding that there are 30 year old foundational elements to the game that would be incredibly time consuming (if at all possible) to change. Lengths of weapons vs character race height type? Yeah we get that. There are just some elements of the game that we just have to accept as idiosyncrasies of one of the oldest online games in the world. You can't get bogged down in some of these discrepancies *Arman whispers 'let it go'*.

Now we don't want to dictate roleplay... Genesis is a sandbox. The idea is to facilitate it, with code to support specific roleplay immersion. The Heralds have been changed to a guild that better reflects Tolkien's view on magic in the fourth millennium in the Third Age. The Valar do not influence events directly. Instead of being booted from the guild for killing an eagle or healing someone evil, there is now a corruption element which allows players choice in actions - however potentially negative consequences which impact on spell effectiveness. In fact, the new Heralds recode is heavily influenced by the MERP roleplay material. It is very thematic and true to that. I make no apologies for the new pros and cons... for in my biased opinion it is a vast improvement on what was there previously. Having said that i'll look in to the mounted issue... I can't promise anything as any possible solution is code-messy though.

I am not sure what you mean on your point about the Morgul Mages, although they fit within the principles of magic guilds outlined above as well as combat aid limits. Having said that, as someone who remembers what the original Morgul Mages were, I don't really like the recode. Morgul Mages are on my radar for a recode... and I am talking blank slate recode in collaboration with the guild leadership. Discussions have commenced, but don't expect anything soon... rangers have priority before MMs.

Agree with you re: Dragonarmies and the singular weapon option use. I hope to address that issue when I release the recode of the Krynn warfare system. As i've flagged in my yearly update as liege of Krynn, the warfare system is something I think is very important to reinvigorate, and was my focus post opening of the WoHS.

User avatar
Arman
Wizard
Posts: 608
Joined: 22 Sep 2014 13:15

Re: Guilds of Genesis

Post by Arman » 19 Jul 2018 12:01

Ody wrote:Simple fix: If you did it for thematics than keep it cast on the horse, but don't make it break when you dismount. Sure. Make it only a boost when mounted, but keep the spell going when you dismount. Otherwise you're going to burn through components pointlessly.
It isn't a simple fix. It is a messy code fix. But i'll see what can be done.

User avatar
Dhez
Adept
Posts: 131
Joined: 07 Oct 2015 17:38
Location: Gorlovka

Re: Guilds of Genesis

Post by Dhez » 19 Jul 2018 12:41

Arman wrote: I am not sure what you mean on your point about the Morgul Mages, although they fit within the principles of magic guilds outlined above as well as combat aid limits. Having said that, as someone who remembers what the original Morgul Mages were, I don't really like the recode. Morgul Mages are on my radar for a recode... and I am talking blank slate recode in collaboration with the guild leadership. Discussions have commenced, but don't expect anything soon... rangers have priority before MMs.

Agree with you re: Dragonarmies and the singular weapon option use. I hope to address that issue when I release the recode of the Krynn warfare system. As i've flagged in my yearly update as liege of Krynn, the warfare system is something I think is very important to reinvigorate, and was my focus post opening of the WoHS.
What I see here happening for a few years now is a very active and dedicated wizard willing to take on an immense amount of work onto himself both code and lorewise, with a bunch of other responsibilities on top of that. We're talking about code no one has wanted to do, ever. He's giving explanations of his actions, examples, and agreeing on the well made points we make. We're seeing more unbiased wizard activity in one person than we have seen in a while, and when bombarded with the usual complaints he's being very civil and open where he could just say "Deal with it", as other wizards have done in the past. All of it for free. So, I'd really suggest building up on that relationship and trying to work with him here. Trust the changes a bit and if there are issues then they should be reported in a more or less civil manner. I certainly don't understand half of these changes nor do I agree with every one he has made, but I recognize quality code being done here, and a solid, even if improvable, reasoning behind it. As a human, there are things he might overlook or seems to have overlooked, and that's something we can definitely focus on. All I'm saying is that the current team of active wizards for the last few years have been doing a lot of work that has long been awaited. If we try to get as much done as possible and work out the kinks as a community, we might just be able to get what the community has wanted for a long time: options, lore rich guilds, a degree of transparency, more communication, less nepotism, more immersion, a ranger recode, etc.

While I do see the reason why people are upset over some things, I just want to take a moment and thank the current team for the quality work they're putting out. I'd love to know more about what currently is being worked on and what is on the to-do list, though. I don't think many people were aware of the changes to the heralds, and I wonder what else is being worked on. By no means should the current wizards spend more time informing and less working. It's their passion that's driving them to work on their projects, but a short informal update is always appreciated, and also: if you would point out the best way of receiving feedback on the changes, which I believe is in-game mail but you're welcome to correct me, that would also be appreciated. Community perception of things may improve with knowledge of internal guild mechanics but we also want to keep some things secret, and I'd rather leave it up to the creators to find a balance they are comfortable with.

EDIT: I focused on Arman on the beginning of this note because it's written in haste (at a slightly elevated pace), but it of course includes Nerull, Jaacar, and the other faceless heroes in the sky.
You see a mousetrap. I see free cheese and a challenge.
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

Post Reply
http://tworzymyatmosfere.pl/przescieradla-jedwabne-z-gumka/