WHO - why too much transparency is bad for Genesis

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Syrk
Rising Hero
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Joined: 06 Jul 2011 22:24

WHO - why too much transparency is bad for Genesis

Post by Syrk » 13 Jul 2019 14:56

WHO - why too much transparency is bad for Genesis and why anonymity would be good.

I would like to point out the destructive influene of who command on the game.
Currently it shows list of all characters in the game. All the characters you know and their current titles and also all names of characters you do not know, without any more information.

I understand that there were times when number of players was very low and such a list was devised to help rise morale - 'I am not the only one around. Let's play!'.

However today it is detrimental.

With use of out-of-game communication means like facebook or discord you can get information on character's affiliations and size easily. So if you wish to avoid certain players, even if you do not know them, you just look for their names on the who list.

You are supplied with the list of current titles and affiliations of players you know. So you have no need to meet, chat, gossip or introduce again to learn about their life story. You already know it all!

There is no chance for any deception or fraud. The game is stripped out of great many chances of (foul)play one could perform. Imagine a former Knight joining Dragon Armies and using his old connection in DA favour... It can never happen with the current system.

Recently a new guild was open. A very hush-hush, secretive guild. In a few hours we knew about that and also knew who was in that guild already. Thanks to who it was no secret at all.

The who takes away anonymity, secrets and mysticism from the game.
If there are adjectives like 'very hurt' to describe number of health points, why do I know that a certain player is a 'Wizard of the Fourth Pink Circle' if I have not met him in a year? He was a Mercenary back then...

Proposal:
Make who command list:
1. A total number of players.
2. Names and titles of characters you know (was introduced to).
3. Titles from point 2 would only show information from the introduction time. To get any new information on character's affliations and size you would have to meet and examine or introduce anew.
4. Newbies would have a newbie helpers list and that list would reveal full and actual list of helpers and their titiles. This way Newbies could get a peek into such things.

That would make both sides: experienced players and beginners happy. First would have their anonymity and chance to roleplay, the second some insight into the possibilites out there.

Draugor
Myth
Posts: 1780
Joined: 06 Mar 2012 00:14

Re: WHO - why too much transparency is bad for Genesis

Post by Draugor » 13 Jul 2019 15:09

I'mma agree with Syrk here

Proposal:
Make who command list:
1. Yes.

2. Aye, makes much sense to only recall what you actually know about someone aka wich you learned when introed

3. Agreed, makes alot more sense and it creates more immersion/reason to actually meet people if you want to keep tabs. Now people get an intro and just monitor what they do titleswise

4. Nlist so newbiehelpers volounteered for it, it's alittle annoying to have newbies just do a whocheck and mail everyone on the list so you have to go look at "Plix come sign" or "Can I have money!?" Those two mails should be cause of killing someone imo, they exactly that idiotic, or make the wholist voloutary, so you can shut off beeing seen on the "Not know" catergory

That would make both sides: experienced players and beginners happy. First would have their anonymity and chance to roleplay, the second some insight into the possibilites out there.
Would also greatly make for easier anonymity for guilds of that nature.

So yes, I agree with Syrk on every point here and I belive alot of people do
Last edited by Draugor on 13 Jul 2019 15:39, edited 2 times in total.

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Dhez
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Location: Gorlovka

Re: WHO - why too much transparency is bad for Genesis

Post by Dhez » 13 Jul 2019 15:13

Signed.
You see a mousetrap. I see free cheese and a challenge.
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

Amberlee
Myth
Posts: 1378
Joined: 08 Mar 2010 19:50
Location: Kristiansund, Norway

Re: WHO - why too much transparency is bad for Genesis

Post by Amberlee » 13 Jul 2019 15:21

Syrk brings up some good points here.
We really need to remove the names of people unknown to the character in the who list.
While secrets leaking out is inevitable, a certain anonymity that everyone enjoyed before is taken from us.

Perhaps make it so registered newbie helpers can be seen by actual newbies?
And then remove the unknown people from the who list.
The views posted by me on this forum is not the views of the character Amberlee in-game.
If you ask for my opinion here, you will get MY opinion, not that of my character.

Draugor
Myth
Posts: 1780
Joined: 06 Mar 2012 00:14

Re: WHO - why too much transparency is bad for Genesis

Post by Draugor » 13 Jul 2019 15:24

At the VERY least make an option

options unknown off or something for people that dont want mailspam from every newbie in the game :P

sylphan
Great Adventurer
Posts: 164
Joined: 12 Nov 2017 19:56

Re: WHO - why too much transparency is bad for Genesis

Post by sylphan » 13 Jul 2019 20:42

I agree with much of this. A change to the <who> function is in order, in favor of more secrecy / anonymity.

Shesara
Beginner
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Joined: 06 Jul 2010 23:45
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Re: WHO - why too much transparency is bad for Genesis

Post by Shesara » 13 Jul 2019 23:02

Thanks to who it was no secret at all
First of all I can agree with parts of this, or at least that it may seem magical for us to be able to divine the titles and names of people we have met years ago.

But I still cannot agree that WHO was the cause of what happened.

Suddenly certain names started dropping from guilds they had previous been members of, but those guilds could not be spotted with WHO at all. In any case, names vanished and people started talking. WHO is not the blame for this, but instead all those forums, discord chats, etc. where information like this is shared instantly.

A sudden change like what we saw should not be blamed on the game or any commands inside the game, but rather on poor planning by the people who suddenly changed their lives around. And then the internet ran wild with chat and rumours. If you should change who, then you also need to get rid of all guildlist commands, since that is where people get a lot of their information from.

Since people on Genesis hardly ever speak with strangers anymore, the very lack of anything resembling roleplay is the cause of this problem. We share information outside the game and that way we don't need to talk in the game, because everything has already been said and agreed upon.

So, no. I will not agree that we need to change WHO. The command is a tool amongst others that helps those who wish to remember their friends and enemies.

Thank you, Shesara's player.

Draugor
Myth
Posts: 1780
Joined: 06 Mar 2012 00:14

Re: WHO - why too much transparency is bad for Genesis

Post by Draugor » 13 Jul 2019 23:44

Shesara wrote:
Thanks to who it was no secret at all
First of all I can agree with parts of this, or at least that it may seem magical for us to be able to divine the titles and names of people we have met years ago.

But I still cannot agree that WHO was the cause of what happened.

Suddenly certain names started dropping from guilds they had previous been members of, but those guilds could not be spotted with WHO at all. In any case, names vanished and people started talking. WHO is not the blame for this, but instead all those forums, discord chats, etc. where information like this is shared instantly.

A sudden change like what we saw should not be blamed on the game or any commands inside the game, but rather on poor planning by the people who suddenly changed their lives around. And then the internet ran wild with chat and rumours. If you should change who, then you also need to get rid of all guildlist commands, since that is where people get a lot of their information from.

Since people on Genesis hardly ever speak with strangers anymore, the very lack of anything resembling roleplay is the cause of this problem. We share information outside the game and that way we don't need to talk in the game, because everything has already been said and agreed upon.

So, no. I will not agree that we need to change WHO. The command is a tool amongst others that helps those who wish to remember their friends and enemies.

Thank you, Shesara's player.
Guildlists are vastly different as they are part of a guild.

And who needs to be changed so you dont see the names of people you DONT know, remembering and all that will still be around. But if you've never met X you shouldn't see X on the list either.

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Luma
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Re: WHO - why too much transparency is bad for Genesis

Post by Luma » 14 Jul 2019 00:43

The fact that people found out about Assasins and who was apart of it is not the fault of 'who'. If someone chooses to introduce themselves to every single person they have ever run into, and then decide to become a rouge, that's not on anyone else. If you don't want people to know who you are, just don't introduce. Plain and simple.

Also, how does knowing who is and who is not logged in tell you someone has changed guilds? Or prevent roleplay?

The 'who' list in its current state is beneficial in the following ways:

-Old Friends: if you 'forgot' someone because they hadn't played for years, you can see that they are up and about again and reconnect.

-Finding your enemies: If you know the name of someone who stole from you; you can still scry and hunt them down.

Note: Specifically regarding having people you have not introduced to on the who list

Greneth
Great Adventurer
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Joined: 30 Aug 2017 19:55

Re: WHO - why too much transparency is bad for Genesis

Post by Greneth » 14 Jul 2019 02:14

Luma wrote:The fact that people found out about Assasins and who was apart of it is not the fault of 'who'. If someone chooses to introduce themselves to every single person they have ever run into, and then decide to become a rouge, that's not on anyone else. If you don't want people to know who you are, just don't introduce. Plain and simple.

Also, how does knowing who is and who is not logged in tell you someone has changed guilds? Or prevent roleplay?

The 'who' list in its current state is beneficial in the following ways:

-Old Friends: if you 'forgot' someone because they hadn't played for years, you can see that they are up and about again and reconnect.

-Finding your enemies: If you know the name of someone who stole from you; you can still scry and hunt them down.

Note: Specifically regarding having people you have not introduced to on the who list
Frankly, you shouldn't be using any readily available global list to know when an enemy is awake. As much as I hate being stolen from what you said perfectly sums up why Thieves are essentially ruined. If someone who hasn't introduced to you steals from you then... tough luck. Close your packs next time. You shouldn't be able to use OOC info easily to obtain a name and get revenge.

Furthermore, it ruins guilds that have spells, abilities and items which conceal them. If I know Tom, Bob and Sam are all Rangers and I run across a medium-sized figure. I can simply type who and see if Tom, Bob or Sam are awake. Oh look, Sam and Bob aren't awake, guess that is Tom. Who I just happened to want to kill. What are they paying tax for again?

Certain areas used to get your blood pumping, Harrads for example. You never knew if a Nazgul was awake or not it was risky going for those polearms. Now I can just check the who list. None on? Perfect, grab some weapons and maybe do the Stair Quest if they stay asleep.

In the middle of a war? Well I can see that the Calians have 10 people on, guess I'll just idle till they are gone.

You can gain a ton of knowledge just by that who list and while it may not matter much to smaller characters once you get up in levels and involve yourself in conflict it becomes both the biggest boon and curse.

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