Upcoming Changes.

All Genesis Common Board Messages get directed here. Discuss and comment!
Forum rules
- Use common sense and be respectful towards each other at all times, even when disagreeing.
- Do not reveal sensitive game information. Guild secrets, player seconds are examples of things not allowed.
Post Reply
User avatar
Silon
Beginner
Posts: 14
Joined: 27 Oct 2020 23:14

Re: Upcoming Changes.

Post by Silon » 08 Mar 2021 18:43

Targun wrote:
08 Mar 2021 18:18
Hektor

I have a lot respect for you as a player and I'm sure there are many that would name your character as one of the first who helped them make their first steps on Genesis, so please don't take this note as some sort of personal attack. I think you push it a bit too far here though and resort to some sort of blackmailing arguments, which follow the lines of: "adhere to my demands or I won't play".

Of course you put it in very eloquent and polite way, but in essence that's your statement. The actual problem here is, you don't even bother to test the changes and make up your own mind, but instead outright say, "I refuse to test it, here are my demands, or I leave". You make some good points, but at the same time fair share or your arguments - in my opinion - does not hold when subjected to critical thinking.

Active play vs. Passive Play

This argument makes little sense when applied to Genesis. As a melee your interaction with the game during grind is - set up your triggers and change rooms. If your special has "something extra" such us; selecting hit location or choosing whether to blind or disarm - you add a button or a switch, or have it automated as well. As a caster - the only difference is - your triggers are a bit more complex, and you have couple more modes, but it can be automated to the same degree. You then have some binds assigned on top of it for more mana consuming "burst rotation" for soloing big mobs. When it comes to combat MUDs really aren't something overly complicated.

Therefore, as far as player involvement in combat is concerned nothing changes for worse in this regard. If anything - right now you actually need to pay some attention, look at the screen from time to time and check your health if you want to min-max your progress. If someone wants to use their old bots, they have to downgrade their XP ground a bit (and still will do at least comparable progress) or invest some time in making their bots a little bit smarter.

I Cannot Play

Of course, you can. You just have to be tad more careful. I honestly don't believe one of the biggest chars in the game, in a guild which isn't exactly a pushover will suddenly flop just because white hits do 200% of their dmg.

Melee vs Casters

I have an issue here in terms of general statement coming from your note. You've been a member of a guild that was one of the most powerful creations in the history of Genesis (at least before the recode). The only two other guilds that could give it run for its money were MM and Vampires (who doesn't long those joyous times when we could enjoy ships with stat-cloud+black breath, somewhat distantly followed by autohunt coded as a guild ability).

Recently, while doing trip down memory lane I found on this very forum an old log, where Nikiel absolutely obliterates Amberlee in 4-5 spells. viewtopic.php?f=17&t=1537&p=12590&hilit ... mer#p12590 - for those interested.

Naturally, it's fairly old log, before Psuchea was recoded to Spirit Circle. My point here however is; most of population had to endure that level of imbalances literally for what ~15+ years? I am quite certain, they had much better reasons to come and say "I refuse to play the game, until things like those in the log, MM or Vampires are addressed" than you do right now.

Although, it's probably fair to say, many people stopped playing for these very reasons. Obviously, since then we've gone a long way and balance has improved massively. Communications, transparency, meritocracy, maturity you name it... simply, general approach by the people running the game is probably the best Genesis has ever enjoyed.

And by all means, I am not saying that if someone was OP in the past, they should be somehow punished. I don't have enough knowledge and data to make some definitive statements about the power comparison between melee and casters nowdays (even if I have some opinions and observations), but could it be that - right now - you're just somewhat on par with melee? Perhaps slightly disfavored in certain scenarios and probably still sought for and favoured in others with some upgrades to casters on the way?

On general note...

PvP
I think abilities blocking movement should be temporarily disabled, if possible. In my view PvP in Genesis requires a bit more thorough revamp, but it's a topic on its own. Unfortunately, in the past it often came down to solutions which resembled performing an eye surgery with a chainsaw and a sledgehammer, which might have netted suboptimal results. Bottom line is, I don't think it should be possible to just enter the room, stun whoever is in it and kill them before the stun ends. If this is the case, I think it should be addressed - or perhaps players should show some maturity and do not use these abilities for a moment.

This being said, if you join a guild like Knights, MM, Rangers, DA, etc. and then you're suprised or upset you died in PvP, then I really think you need to do some research, before you pick your guild.

Death penalty
I think with death recovery - it's really not big of a deal. You get 80% of lost XP back in absolutely no time. Just a quick look at the number of power-player myths that purposefully got themselves to expert just to quickly grind guild-stat in their new guilds should be an indicator enough and... they're back to myths in no time.

My Opinion so far
I like the fact that the game is more fast paced. I think there are some things that seem to fly under the radar or need to be adjusted. To name a few
- I saw some massive dmg coming from archer mobs, that normally wouldn't even scratch me.
- I think white hits should be normalized a bit more (reduced upper / lower bound on random ), so that general dmg stays the same, but we don't observe those massive hits that chunk so much health in one go.

Bias Disclaimer (of the 2 characters I tested the changes on): On my monk - I was so far able to get progress about 15% faster, with extensive healing. I think with some testing I can probably push that number further however. On my other character (offensively set up), I'm absolutely flying, doing progress at least twice as fast as before the changes. I am abusing some XP grounds and mechanics on that character though.
I want to ask, how does this bring fighters and casters closer? A caster now will definitely be destroyed fairly quick in a fight against melee and even in PvE they seem less capable, I used to fall into a tank role(which I can barely do now) and my damage doesn't compare to the white hits and specials fighters get right now. Sure I can heal...but I can no longer grind efficiently and there are better healers in the realms, There is no being on par right now, nor are casters sought after as much as you think currently. I'm not going to quit but it is pretty disheartening to not be able to do anything you used to be able to do well.
Rolling along in the grease of shame....wait potatoes don't feel shame do they?

User avatar
Redblade
Adventurer
Posts: 89
Joined: 10 Aug 2020 18:51

Re: Upcoming Changes.

Post by Redblade » 08 Mar 2021 19:54

Targun wrote:
08 Mar 2021 18:18

PvP
This being said, if you join a guild like Knights, MM, Rangers, DA, etc. and then you're suprised or upset you died in PvP, then I really think you need to do some research, before you pick your guild.

Death penalty
I think with death recovery - it's really not big of a deal. You get 80% of lost XP back in absolutely no time. Just a quick look at the number of power-player myths that purposefully got themselves to expert just to quickly grind guild-stat in their new guilds should be an indicator enough and... they're back to myths in no time.


Bias Disclaimer (of the 2 characters I tested the changes on): On my monk - I was so far able to get progress about 15% faster, with extensive healing. I think with some testing I can probably push that number further however. On my other character (offensively set up), I'm absolutely flying, doing progress at least twice as fast as before the changes. I am abusing some XP grounds and mechanics on that character though.
I'd like to make a note on these points, Targun. I also respect you as a player and as a guildmate. :) Not meaning to offend, just to say I view it differently, perhaps.

PvP: I joined Rangers far before the changes. I expected standing a fair chance against the guilds I was in War with. You can guess how I view if there was balance between us and Mages (or research forums, I think I made myself clear :) ). However now the balance shifts the other way. And that's not good either! I want PvP, sure. But I want a fair fight!
If I die in a fair fight, I acknowledge my oponent bested me (perhaps send an OOC congratulation), sigh heavily and get on my recovery.
If I die in an unfair fight, that's however quite different. What do I mean by unfair, that's to debate. But killing someone's whole guildhall in seconds (one of the formerly more secure places in the Realms) and slaughtering two players out of one is not even involved in your war? That does not fall into my definition of fair fight. I can however understand some poeple won't fight fair.

Death penalty: If a myth goes to expert and grinds back in no time, that's an example of power-player. I think there's significant amount of roleplayers though. And those will never make it back that fast :) I think the game should also be playable for those. I get that without death recovery it used to be crazy bad. But it's not pleasant now either.

Bias disclaimer: My Monk char with a bit of strategy (rising hero, pretty normal stats) does multiple times better than my caster (immortal int+wis titan). :) Until this blows over, you won't see the caster though he's fun roleplay. And I get a notion many people feel that way :)
Auta i lómë, Aurë entuluva!
The Night is passing, Day shall come again!

Thoru
Beginner
Posts: 10
Joined: 08 May 2017 05:34

Re: Upcoming Changes.

Post by Thoru » 08 Mar 2021 19:56

I just want to add my two cents on the PvP portion of this thread and the changes to the Realms. PvP in Genesis is fun and really it boils down to a few, at different levels, that actively engage in PvP in the Realms. Most of which are tied to Warring guilds. The Evils that actively engage in PvP are typically huge and ( I say this begrudgingly ) knowledgeable and smart. That is kudos to them, they have worked for their size and game knowledge and put it to good use. It is part of what makes PvP in Genesis thrilling for me, personally.

Now, the vast majority of PvP I am familiar with happens on the Warplains and all of it within Krynn. This type of PvP typically never results in a kill but someone fleeing the field of battle. Bragging rights, if you will. This leads to all sorts of RP opportunities and banter through the post. That is due, mostly, to the nature of the Warplains. In these situations you could stay and fight, knowing you weren’t going to win but also with the possibility of fleeing. I will be the first to admit, it often takes two Knights to chase off certain goblins. It was not uncommon to see two or three Knights roaming the Warplains or sallying forth to protect a Plain. I absolutely adored this dimension of the game.

The recent change to the Realms has changed this reality. As people have mentioned above it is now a gank fest. Traveling alone, anywhere, is a risk when your survival time is nil. We saw this new reality in action the moment this change went live.

As to the killing at the Keep. My hat is off to the three that pulled it off. It was timed well and it was executed well. Do I think it would have happened before the change, of course not. The NPC’s in the Keep are pretty well known for being buggers. The time it took them to get in, wreak havoc, and leave was moments. Attacks on the Keep have happened in the past and some have been successful. This one, however, was much different. It is even more bitter for the players that were killed, in what was considered a relatively safe location.

I have heard wizards, in all different formats, shout at the top of their lungs “get a team! They can’t stand against a team!” We did exactly that, and I say this seriously, we had the team to do it. Sure it probably took us too long to coordinate it and yes, some of us would have died in the process, but we had the team. They knew we had the team. One went LD, another quit out, and the last went to the church. Again, kudos to them for knowing when to hold them and knowing when to fold them.

I truly think something has got to give on the death penalty for PvP, if these changes stick, if the expected time to live in a fight is now shorter than the attention span of my two year old. Otherwise, we are just going to see a mob of evils storming about killing everybody followed by a mob of goodies storming about killing everybody which inevitably leads to people quitting or refusing to play. I think we can agree that this isn’t what anybody wants to see.

As to the people that say “If you join a PvP guild you should really think about your choice first” trust me, we have. And we do. And we hammer it in to our applicants. And now, it is a much different reality. To them, I would say this: you have every right to comment on changes made to aspects of the game that affects your character. As do we, and PvP is one of those aspects more so than most, as you have so eloquently pointed out.

As to the PvE side of this change, I actually like it. Everything can’t be face tanked, mobs hurt solo, teaming is encouraged. I have always preferred to play Genesis with a team but, like the rest of this post, that is a personal preference. Magic probably needs some love now, but I am sure that is coming soon.

User avatar
Cherek
Site Admin
Posts: 3179
Joined: 04 Mar 2010 04:36

Re: Upcoming Changes.

Post by Cherek » 08 Mar 2021 20:46

I just want to change my previous statement about the two players who were AFK-killed (discussed earlier in the thread). After going directly to the source, I've learned that they were not AFK, as the information floating around claimed. So, I take that back. I, if anyone, should know better than to listen to rumours. That said, it was also very clear that the new white hits changes were not directly reponsible for the deaths either. Those kills would have happened in any system we've ever had since it was an extremely uneven and one-sided fight. It's of course possible that the change encouraged the killers to attack (we can only speculate about that), but the attack itself would have been just as successful in the old system.

That said, we are currently taking a closer look at PVP under the new system. If there are any tweaks, we will post it on the common board.

User avatar
Silon
Beginner
Posts: 14
Joined: 27 Oct 2020 23:14

Re: Upcoming Changes.

Post by Silon » 08 Mar 2021 21:01

Cherek wrote:
08 Mar 2021 20:46
I just want to change my previous statement about the two players who were AFK-killed (discussed earlier in the thread). After going directly to the source, I've learned that they were not AFK, as the information floating around claimed. So, I take that back. I, if anyone, should know better than to listen to rumours. That said, it was also very clear that the new white hits changes were not directly reponsible for the deaths either. Those kills would have happened in any system we've ever had since it was an extremely uneven and one-sided fight. It's of course possible that the change encouraged the killers to attack (we can only speculate about that), but the attack itself would have been just as successful in the old system.

That said, we are currently taking a closer look at PVP under the new system. If there are any tweaks, we will post it on the common board.
Probably doesn't change your chance but, do you think you 100% think that they would have done this if these changes weren't introduced? They took advantage of these white hits with it being easier to enter the keep because trust me, it would have taken a lot longer. They were in and out.
Rolling along in the grease of shame....wait potatoes don't feel shame do they?

User avatar
Cherek
Site Admin
Posts: 3179
Joined: 04 Mar 2010 04:36

Re: Upcoming Changes.

Post by Cherek » 08 Mar 2021 21:51

Silon: Both me and the attacked party agreed that the outcome of the fight would have been the same before the change. Yes it was quicker now, but the end result would have been the same, as they would have been unable to escape during the old system too. Like I said, it's of course possible the attackers saw a chance to to use this change to their advantage, but unless they specifically say so, we're not gonna know for sure, are we? Maybe the change sparked the attack, maybe it would have happened anyway. But a lot of players are experimenting, trying to figure out how to best use this change. You're probably doing that as well?

Yes, of course it is easier to kill someone now, compared to before the change. I hope, and think, all players who decided to play immediately after the change also understood this? I feel we have been very clear and open about that the game WILL become more dangerous after the change because of the increased damage. I really do think that players who are involved in guild conflicts also understood that the risk would be greater for them as well.

User avatar
Arc
Greenhorne
Posts: 5
Joined: 03 Feb 2021 20:20

Re: Upcoming Changes.

Post by Arc » 08 Mar 2021 21:53

So... I guess here are my thoughts on the new changes. When playing as my smaller merc/mino alt, Thur, I was quite pleased with the changes. Things seemed balanced, just a lot faster, which I was a fan of. But when I switched over to Arc, my SoHM/Pirate main character... oof. Now, I'm all for nerfing casters, I understand that they've been pretty powerful. But this is way overboard. I died yesterday(not because of the update, just because I was regenning in icewall after a particularly nasty fight in a place I thought was safe from dragons. It wasn't), and grinding back to where I was is agony. Where beforehand I could breeze through gont with ease, I now fear for my life fighting two harbour workers at once. Some others, who are fighters that are at least relatively close to my level, have reported that they can do gont pretty easily, even with the changes. So I know this isn't just "Oh, you're experiencing what everyone else experiences". It's more like I'm experiencing GA, but at expert, so xp is so much tougher to get, even on recovery. Even trying to go to weaker grinding places, I still take more damage than is reasonable, and get practically no xp.

Overall, I agree with the basic idea of the change, but I think it should be seriously scaled back. It's definitely overcorrected.
"Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life." - Terry Pratchett

Amberlee
Myth
Posts: 1516
Joined: 08 Mar 2010 19:50
Location: Kristiansund, Norway

Re: Upcoming Changes.

Post by Amberlee » 08 Mar 2021 21:56

So they were in fact killed so fast that they had barely any time to react and people thought they were AFK?
I am sure you know where I am going with this Cherek.
The views posted by me on this forum is not the views of the character Amberlee in-game.
If you ask for my opinion here, you will get MY opinion, not that of my character.

User avatar
Cherek
Site Admin
Posts: 3179
Joined: 04 Mar 2010 04:36

Re: Upcoming Changes.

Post by Cherek » 08 Mar 2021 22:07

Amberlee wrote:
08 Mar 2021 21:56
So they were in fact killed so fast that they had barely any time to react and people thought they were AFK?
I am sure you know where I am going with this Cherek.
Yeah, they wre killed as fast as a team of three huge casters would have killed someone in the old system. Proving this change is making things more even. That is where you were going with this, right? :)

Also, check the common board.

Amberlee
Myth
Posts: 1516
Joined: 08 Mar 2010 19:50
Location: Kristiansund, Norway

Re: Upcoming Changes.

Post by Amberlee » 08 Mar 2021 22:48

Cherek wrote:
08 Mar 2021 22:07
Amberlee wrote:
08 Mar 2021 21:56
So they were in fact killed so fast that they had barely any time to react and people thought they were AFK?
I am sure you know where I am going with this Cherek.
Yeah, they wre killed as fast as a team of three huge casters would have killed someone in the old system. Proving this change is making things more even. That is where you were going with this, right? :)

Also, check the common board.
This is the common board.
Also no, they have casting time and with added resists you can pretty much make casters manageable.
The views posted by me on this forum is not the views of the character Amberlee in-game.
If you ask for my opinion here, you will get MY opinion, not that of my character.

Post Reply
http://tworzymyatmosfere.pl/przescieradla-jedwabne-z-gumka/