Equipment, a lottery.

A place to discuss all the ins and outs of equipment in the Genesis Donut. Warning: Spoilers may be included. Only validated game players will see this forum.
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serander
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Re: Equipment, a lottery.

Post by serander » 31 Jan 2022 19:06

What's the problem?
What we have here is a simple matter of supply and demand.
Supply is abysmally low, demand incredibly high, especially for
weapons where good combinations/options are few (knives).
This creates situations where players camp and hoard items,
instead of actively playing the game grinding or RP-ing.

It all becomes a loooong ass equipment hunt.

I personally don't get why all this effort is being made to limit
the amount of high-tier gear in the game. In what way does
that make the game better or more fun to play?


Simple solution would be just to increase the drop rate.
If supply is high enough, there is no incentive to camp and
hoard things, and you won't be able to make $$$ on auctions.

Is team-forcing the solution?

Personally, I don't feel forcing teaming will improve the situation any.
Drops will still be abysmally low and the team would not be able to
gather equipment for the whole team, with the risk that the
ones getting geared will drop off becaause they are happy with
their stuff right now.

Besides, all you would do is to skew the drops to the player that
teams, not really improving the situation - rather just changing
the distribution.

I'm all for improving teaming in Genesis, but I don't think this will
solve anything in regards to the "equipment lottery".

Long term
Ideally (long term) I would think it would be more fun to introduce
"bosses" who require the teams Nils talks about, but then a la WoW,
drops personal loot-bags for people involved in the kill.

Each allowing random drops. Perhaps with a bias towards things that
match the OCC guild they are in (higher chance for knives for FK, clubs for AA etc).

Make it worth something for everyone who participate in taking down
the Undead Dragon of Raumdor or whatever boss you feel like making.

Those would be fun end-game objectives, and also a good way to
drop worthwhile loot, keeping the current system for the "non team"
NPC's (but with higher drop rate).

/Seranders player

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Dhez
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Re: Equipment, a lottery.

Post by Dhez » 01 Feb 2022 15:06

How to easily solve gear scarcity, hoarding and such? Make all gear non break. The 90/4 days longevity thing was very succesful if we compare it with the glowing mechanics of the past. If we all could rely on that for all items there would be less of an intense need to hunt for weapons that break after 4 hours of grinding.

That would lead to more grinding and less gear hunting, yes, but we could solve player size inflation with a cap on growth at some point.

Gear hunting is fun, but I think the problem is having to gear camp for days so you can grind for a few hours.

(Size cap = Genesis' version of Godwin's law)
You see a mousetrap. I see free cheese and a challenge.
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

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Dakhor
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Re: Equipment, a lottery.

Post by Dakhor » 23 Oct 2022 12:48

Hullo!

This loot box system needs to change!

I have been back after some time away and even though being fairly active for some time now I have not found a single drop on the say 4 ish “bosses” I kill on a regular basis meaning 5 ish times a day. NOT A SINGLE DROP!!!

We are talking at least 300-400 killings and nothing and it’s simply disgusting !

It’s has become totally ridiculous! For instance the ring that gives darkness was sold recently at the AH for what I last saw more then 3000 platinum. That’s INSANE and a clear indication that something needs to change!!!

I support a couple of the ideas thrown around in this thread.

1 - Make the drop rate static (ie predictable and low if need be naturally) and not dependent on how many of said items are in the realms.
2 - There needs to be “worse”-versions of each item that are more easily attainable.

However making bosses harder to kill gives me a sour taste - I play mostly solo.

Cheers

Dak

TaranGoatWalker
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Re: Equipment, a lottery.

Post by TaranGoatWalker » 24 Oct 2022 08:59

Why do we need more top tier eq circulating? That doesn't sound optimal...
Stabby stabby stab stab.

kelrhys
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Re: Equipment, a lottery.

Post by kelrhys » 24 Oct 2022 17:45

Lots of great points and ideas in this thread! I have a couple to throw in as well.

Problem: Equipment camping and hoarding plus low drop rates make equipment hunting unworthwhile for all but the hoarders.

Caveat: Need to support both solo and team equipment hunting, at all mortal levels. New uber-team bosses are neat, but shouldn't be the only way to get good items.

Solution part A: Stacks of more than two of the same (non-imbued) weapons and armours merge, kind of like the shards in the Kabal cathedral, whether in inventory or racks. Because there would then be no point in hoarding, players are incentivized to take only what they actually can use. Drop rates may then be raised somewhat where they are currently really low.

Solution part B: Create more repeatable mini-quest areas that can be soloed at various mortal levels for commensurate rewards. Best rewards would be soloable if you are a myth, or done in a team if you are somewhat smaller. An existing example is the Warleader/Savant Lord in the Tharkadan mountains. Verath the Ghastly dragon's hoard is another, but for a worthwhile reward these mini-quests would ideally be located out of common myth traffic areas and take a little more time to complete than a simple kill, and therefore are more likely to be available. High AC with a niche useful skill on a pair of etched platinum royal greaves and/or bracers seized from a deposed princeling of Enlad in Earthsea would be highly appealing, for example.

Regarding top tier gear circulating...for those who have dedicated their time to the extent that they are mythical and beyond, this can be one of their primary motivations to play, so perhaps some care should be taken in trying to deprive them of it. If instead this was viewed as "it's boring to see everyone using the same weapons and wearing the same top armours" that creates opportunity! Many times I have heard people exclaim over their favorite weapon, and it is always because it has a cool short and long description, and unique special hit. If time were invested in fixing existing interesting weapons like the Reaper of Souls, and creating additional rare "event" weapons like Kitiara's elegant jewel-encrusted sabre, this variety can be achieved. Rare event weapons should all be nondulling, of course!

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Dakhor
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Re: Equipment, a lottery.

Post by Dakhor » 25 Oct 2022 14:33

kelrhys wrote:
24 Oct 2022 17:45
Regarding top tier gear circulating...for those who have dedicated their time to the extent that they are mythical and beyond, this can be one of their primary motivations to play.
It can be worse than that... It can mean the difference between "almost unplayable" and "kicking ass". Or never bothering to try find that nice to have item.

Lets say there was a water elemental guild. Obviously you would have skills directed at the element water. However that element is not always available as not every room has a fountain nor does it rain in ever realm.

So the solution is obviously to create an endless bucked of water that the water elemental players carry around and splash on the ground so to take benefit of "being in water" and also use for their guild abilities.

So this makes this never ending bucked of water a very sought after item. More so it becomes absolutely vital for a water elemental being able to play the game without being seriously handicapped.

Then you have these fireball casting wizards. The fire element is a dangerous one and sometimes you start fires and burn yourself - would it not be handy to have a bucket of water when needed so not to lose half your health when firespells critically fail. But alas its almost impossible to find one as for some its not nice to have but essential.

#buff Bubba gear

DaK

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Cherek
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Re: Equipment, a lottery.

Post by Cherek » 28 Oct 2022 15:13

When we first switched to the "new" EQ saving system droprates were higher than they are now, and after a while we saw an abundance of top tier EQ in the game. Even the new players got used to using top tier stuff (donated by bigger players), which in my opinion caused a pretty sad situation where 99% of equipment in the game was basically useless. Because, why use anything less than the best, when it's widely available? I think it became a pretty boring game where almost only one type of shield, only one type of greaves, only one type of bracers, etc, were actually used. We had over a thousand Raumdor greaves/bracers in the game at one point, we had hundreds of turtle shells, etc. That was the reasoning for lowering droprates for top tier stuff, and I still think that was the right call.

I do understand the frustration of killing a boss X times without finding anything, but I don't think upping droprates is the solution either, because then we go back to an abundance of good stuff instead. At any given time there are always atleast 10-20 copies of "the best weapon/armour of it's type" in the game (in racks or on players that are logged in), and that doesn't even count all the stuff in offline players inventories. Even with the "low" droprates of today, things add up quickly. Let's assume a popular boss is killed 10 times per day (that's probably a low estimate for some bosses). So, ten times per day for a month is 300 kills in a month. If we have a droprate of 5%, it means we get 15 copies of "superior weapon" entering the game every month, or one every other day. Now, EQ usually lasts more than two days, especially unbreakable stuff, which means that even at a low droprate of 5%, the total amount of "superior weapon" in the game will go up, up, up, up... and half a year later racks are overflowing with it. To keep levels more or less steady, droprates for these kind of items need to be lower than 5%... and with such low droprates, you can kill something 30, 40, 50, even more times, without getting your sought after item. Which of course is frustrating for the individual player...

So, what's the solution?

Well, we can make EQ last shorter. For example by removing all unbreakable items. Then we can probably up the droprates for those items. But will that make players happier? I doubt it.

We can increase the decay rate of items. But again, will that make anyone happier? I doubt it.

We tried a new approach with Benton, where he always have something good, but resets less often. What do people feel about that? Better or worse?

Another solution is the decrease the gap between tier 1 and tier 2, 3, etc items. Because what piece of equipmen is so good that without it the game is "almost unplayable"? If we have items that are so far superior to any other alternatives, so that a player feel they _HAVE_ to use it, or the game is not worth playing, then I think perhaps the problem is with those items, and the big gap between the best EQ and the rest of the pack?

Quantum
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Re: Equipment, a lottery.

Post by Quantum » 29 Oct 2022 02:05

I think I would like to draw in what other games do. As an example, lets use World of Warcraft. While on the decline it still has a relatively high player base.

Two of the things that make people want to continue playing the game are dungeons and raids. Translating this into Genesis terms, I would call it 1-2 person instances and 3-5 person instances. With each person being an average size myth, more on that later. When you sign up for a dungeon or raid in WoW, you are very likely to get at least one item you can use. Weapon or armour. Which means people happily do 5-6-20 dungeons per day. Or a handful of raids. Casuals less obviously. But regardless of whether you are a hardcore raider or casual dungeon crawler, with effort comes a high likelyhood of reward.

Not so much in Genesis. You can spend the entire day killing one boss after another, sometimes 30-40 Garren, Kernan, Shale, Goliath, Kabal Captain, Drakmere Knight etc etc and not get anything really good. A handful of mediocre items, but not what you were looking for. Then the next day you might get lucky and end up with 4 items you really wanted. But its super random. And often quite frustrating.

Cherek said that raising the size of "bosses" to increase their droprate would mean that "smaller" players would not be able to try their luck. Which is completely true. For a players alt, not a problem, his friends can get him items. But for a truly new player, a disaster as their experience in the game would be mediocre gear for the first year or 3, of them creating a character in Genesis.

So instead what I propose, is that for the myth+ population, you instead make instanced dungeons and raids. Ohh, but then the supermyths will make bot trains and farm themselves even bigger, I hear you say? Yes, so remove all experience gain from these instances. Lets say 3 friends log on one evening and really want to try something fun. I know, says the old man who likes cola more than he is supposed to, lets do a Scholomance run! So they head over to the instance, knowing that the next half hour of killing and mayhem will not make them any bigger, but while fighting the 2-3 bosses on the way to the endgame boss in said dungeon, they see a high quality item drop from each boss and a super item from the last one. Well, maybe make the dungeon last an hour if its for a max stat item. Armours on the way past the little bosses and a weapon/unarmed enhancer (which we still need more of) from the last boss. So do these 3 friends know that they will get a super item they can use? Not guaranteed, since they have a monk, a wizard and a knight in their group. And tonight there is no unarmed enhancer boot from outer space with purple lazors or a wand or a big shiny sword. Tonight they find an axe. A really good axe. One that makes neidars drool and their eyes glaze over and shine like diamonds. But on the way the wizard finds the nice purple hat from the frog queen and the knight finds the shiny bracers from the sheep dragon. And they donate the super duper axe mk. 2 to their Neidar friend. Or gladiator friend. They spent an hour, had some fun, got some loot, gave some loot away, and got zero experience points along the way. Instead they had fun, and might even go back in for another round, hoping that the next weapon will be more useful. Because something is guaranteed to drop. Because they know that all their efforts will never be completely wasted. Does that mean mercenaries will benefit the most from this idea. Absolutely. Unfortunately I do not have a mercenary, but I suppose we could see more of them if this goes through. Apart from that, it would give the myths something else to do, open up some areas and "bosses" to non-myths.

Think about it, you make one dungeon for testing, use the instancing technology that was made previously but never rolled out, and you kill a handful of birds with just 1 stone.

1. Murder and mayhem for everyone. No "ohh this place is empty since super myth team 3 already cleared it".
2. Murder and mayhem with no risk of being ganked by super myth team 2.
3. More room for everyone outside these dungeons.
4. Less experience growth since people will have other things to do.
5. More good equipment for those who absolutely can't go anywhere unless they have super duper gear in every imaginable slot.
6. More possibilities of people coding "an adventure". Not just a place with rooms and npc's. But the possibility of creating a narrative experience where players must rescue a damsel in distress (not from dragons so monks can join) or help recover a long lost heirloom or join an army trying to storm a castle. Mobs blocking so you have to clear things before you can move on, must kill minibosses to spawn end boss etc etc.
7. Guaranteed loot, no guarantee you can use it though - So no wasted evenings thinking "I'll never find anything useful".
8. Maybe add a board or some kind of mechanic for people who want to join a group for a raid to join a public raid. A way for people to meet up. Maybe a raid leader starts up a new raid listing the need for 2 tanks, 2 healers and x dps. And people can sign up for those roles. So even if you're brand new, or want to stop going solo and actually meet people, you get a structure in which you can do so. Even if you're introvert and socially awkward. #raidfinder #dailyheroics

When thinking of MMORPG's, most of them have both wide open spaces where everyone can mingle with everyone, and dungeons where only a group can go. And groups of myths need content just for them. While you're smaller, you run around doing quests. But at some point you've done them all. Just like in an MMO.

Goodnight everyone.

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Cherek
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Re: Equipment, a lottery.

Post by Cherek » 29 Oct 2022 02:49

Nothing wrong with your ideas Quantum, except that it requires a huge effort to create all this new content... I am not fan of having instanced dungeons in Genesis, though, because I think Genesis should be ONE world. However, your idea with dungeons without XP and certain good loot could still be applied to Genesis without making making the dungeons instanced copies. Our playerbase really is small enough to not need it anyway. Of course, if teams of myths complete these dungeons several times per day, we'll end up with the same issue I described above - we'll flood the game with really good stuff and everything else loses value. This could possibly be solved with these dungeons only being available at certain times, almost like repeatable mini-events. But even if we create all this, we still have the old bosses and EQ, and the same droprate and complaints about them... unless we remove them and place them and/or their EQ inside the new dungeons of course.

Regardless, it's a massive project, and I know I sound like a boring record on repeat when I reply the same way to many ideas, but, it is what it is. We have a very small population of wizards, and only a handful of wizards could code what you propose (without it taking a decade to complete:). It's not a bad idea, but I fear it's just too big to have a chance of actually happening anytime soon. Realistically, we probably need a simpler idea for it to actually happen.

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Riva
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Re: Equipment, a lottery.

Post by Riva » 29 Oct 2022 03:38

I wouldn't mind super uber gear being more common with the drawback being they break faster. Knife users already know what this is like since the swingblade is basically a knife made out of paper mache. Except the swingblade has both downsides, super rare and garbage durability, while being basically the best and most sought after knife around. If gear was more common but less durable I for one wouldn't feel like I'm wasting my time farming for a swingblade only for it to break after a single day of grinding.

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