Fact-checking and critical thinking

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Cherek
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Re: Fact-checking and critical thinking

Post by Cherek » 08 Jun 2022 08:24

Very good post Targun, definitely not a rant, and I agree with basically everything you said. Will we manage to fix all this? No, probably not. But perhaps we can at least take some small steps in the right direction to begin with.

Lilith
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Re: Fact-checking and critical thinking

Post by Lilith » 18 Jun 2022 03:27

On the subject of transparency:
Back when I started playing Genesis, we used to have access to the numbers. We used to be able to see our stats and the stats of weapons, etc. I think we also used to be able to see how much exp we got from monsters and quests. If I recall correctly, Mecien worked to get that changed, and when the change was made, some serious issues came up.

At the time most wizards were in Sweden, since Genesis was founded by the Chalmers computer club. Non-Chalmers players were peeved because they knew that Chalmers-based players had access to the numbers and the source code and thought it was unfair (which it was) because they had the double benefit of zero latency and backdoor access to the code. This was a big source of distrust for wizards and Chalmers players mortals. So people wizzed their characters back when you could complete a quest to do it, and shared the info they had access to with their friends, which then got them deleted, but at least their friends knew what the Chalmers players knew, right? This us v them / mortals v Chalmers mentality became pretty entrenched and still manifests today in its own way.

The choice to go with obfuscation over transparency has had its costs ass well its its benefits. I think it is time to consider allowing something that a few others have proposed: an "options numbers on/off" so that players who want the numbers can see them, and those who don't want to see them don't have to see them.

The players who _really_ want to see the numbers find ways to get access to them anyway -- but the ways they do are unhealthy for the Genesis community. It undermines trust and tarnishes integrity to have players and wizards exchanging information that isn't "common knowledge". Since it is almost impossible to keep numbers out of certain mortals' hands, it is better, IMHO, to make those numbers freely available to those who want to see them. This has the added benefit of making it obvious when the stats of various weapons/armours/npcs/etc are changed, since the numbers wouldn't lie.

So, anyway, rather than ask wizards to be more transparent, which results in an uneven distribution of information... why not just have an "options see numbers on/off" or something similar, to level the playing field, clear up misconceptions, and make sure that everyone has access to the same information in a sanctioned way?

Lilith


'

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Zhar
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Re: Fact-checking and critical thinking

Post by Zhar » 18 Jun 2022 03:43

Lilith wrote:
18 Jun 2022 03:27
So, anyway, rather than ask wizards to be more transparent, which results in an uneven distribution of information... why not just have an "options see numbers on/off" or something similar, to level the playing field, clear up misconceptions, and make sure that everyone has access to the same information in a sanctioned way?

Lilith
Personally I think that some obfuscation is a good thing. I find it much more immersive to see "You seriously cut someone with your sword" than "You do 40 damage to someone". But (there's always a "but", isn't there?) I also think that players should get some better tools to judge those vague words. Appraisal skills are notoriously lackluster in Genesis, especially that player- and item-related numbers have seen some inflation over the years. I think it would be reasonable to lower the error margin on those significantly, so even without seeing the exact numbers with appraisal skills of superior craftsman and above people should be able to judge the difference between two players or items fairly accurately (and not like now where a huge discrepancy in certain stat shows as "little").

That could be one of the ways to give people more information without actually revealing the true values. Another thing could maybe be some "benchmark NPCs" - NPCs that always have the same stats/equipment so people can run tests on them.

And finally, I think that most of the guild info is no longer much of a secret, especially to the older players, and perhaps it could be made more public? Without all the juicy details but even stating it in vague terms like: this and that skill - high, this skill - low (there's already a guild that can reveal that info as an emote, why not make it public?), damaging special and an evasive special. As is a lot of newer players often go blind into the guild choices while older ones can tailor their choices to "min-max" their characters. I also think that members of the guild should know what form and element their spells require just like which stats and skills their specials use. This wouldn't reveal any actual numbers but could let people make informed decisions regarding their character development.

Not a rant, just a set of loose ideas that I think might be worth discussing.
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Budwise
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Re: Fact-checking and critical thinking

Post by Budwise » 21 Jun 2022 16:44

Yes, bring back HP/SP... and universal shout... noone ever abused that. :)

But in all seriousness we do have something akin to numbers, just a bit softer.
If you obsess about numbers there are ways and lore on how to judge them
that doesn't involve wizzyshenanigans.

Personally I prefer to live in ignorance about how many fantastic progress
I would have to make to regain a death for instance. Cause the number is depressingly big
and would not give me incentive. Just put nose to grindstone and be happy
once the old stats are back.

Quantum
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Re: Fact-checking and critical thinking

Post by Quantum » 01 Jul 2022 18:05

I think Lilith is on to something. Make it an option. Numbers on or off. If people prefer the unknown, they can do that. If people like spreadsheets and calculations and optimizing, they can do that.

Win/win for everyone?

And while we're at it, options pvp on/off. Those who want to pvp can still do it and jump each other whenever they want to. And everyone else can just not be part of that.

Make the game more flexible and tailored to what people like?

Q

Chanele
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Re: Fact-checking and critical thinking

Post by Chanele » 01 Jul 2022 19:13

I agree on the first part of your reply but the second part sounds like a botters safe haven.

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Re: Fact-checking and critical thinking

Post by TaranGoatWalker » 01 Jul 2022 21:29

Then what stops me from waltzing into MM and grinding there for imbues?
Stabby stabby stab stab.

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nils
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Re: Fact-checking and critical thinking

Post by nils » 01 Jul 2022 23:07

Lilith wrote:
18 Jun 2022 03:27
why not just have an "options see numbers on/off" or something similar, to level the playing field, clear up misconceptions, and make sure that everyone has access to the same information in a sanctioned way?
Let me start by saying this isn't the worst of ideas, and I know -I- would love being able to base my min-maxing on actual facts. That said, currently I rely on information gathered over two and a half decades of researching, fraternizing and testing, and believe it or not - this holds actual value today. I'd actually feel robbed if made.. well, trivial!

Recently many changes have been made to make the game easier and more approachable for new players. While I applaud these initiatives, they come with ill side-effects too, and I want to highlight the devaluation of experience. An example here is the dude in palanthas that enables total re-distribution of stats. A good idea, and certainly a time-saver, but also a quick and dirty way to jump between guilds with previously unknown ease. I mean damn, having died down to extremely pacifistic and really put in the work towards recovery used to be a badge of honour and neccessary cost in order to go from one class to another. Actual work has value too!

I think the game would be poorer If you enable "options see numbers on/off" because it would serve to severely diminish the value of experience. Sure, there's the argument that it would make certain skills obsolete (see also some guilds lose a little value), but I think this is dwarfed compared to the abovementioned.
Quantum wrote:
01 Jul 2022 18:05
.. while we're at it, options pvp on/off. Those who want to pvp can still do it and jump each other whenever they want to. And everyone else can just not be part of that.

Make the game more flexible and tailored to what people like?
First of all, Genesis has always had pvp. It had pvp when you started playing, and the moment you fell in love with the game it had pvp too. You're suggesting turning Genesis into a different game altogether. There's a better solution: Find another game to play.
Quantum in the future wrote: "But Nils, I suggested we make it electable!"
Yes, but it would effectively end pvp. How, you say?

That's a longer answer, but let me give it a go.

I've always loved the fact that not only does pvp exist, it is also really punishing. I'll openly admit that I can take perverse enjoyment from other people's misery in a game. Schadenfreude, baby! This places me firmly in Bartle's "Killer"-category, and since there's an actual name for this gamer personality, I'm certainly not special for being it. Every game has them - deal with it.

That said I don't miss the old days of pre-recovery one bit. A death would be years lost today. Unfair, period.

Moving on. If a player wants to act like a dick, there's nothing stopping him from harassing, being all together obnoxious and really hone the skill of asshattery. With "pvp off" he is completely safe from retribution. And that's just his or her words, what about actions?

Kill the Rider and enjoy the FBB with "pvp off", knowing full well the Mages can't touch you.
Go bare-bones with your scripts. Kill steal from anyone. "pvp off" becomes your bubble of safety! Not a worry in the world.
Join thieves or worse - become a kender, and rob people 24/7. Caught? Pfft, pvp off!
Feeling like raiding a guild? "pvp off" and slay to your hearts' content, free from consequence.

See, the fact that Genesis has pvp is also it's governing attribute. It positively regulates behaviour and distributes consequences/punishment without engaging the developers or administration when someone fails to.. well, human. It keeps (most) people on their best behaviour. Is it perfect? Not even a little. This is where I want to draw on reality (unlike when discussing game mechanics) and say the world has never been fair either. In this sense, genesis is a pretty good real life simulator in its present state.

Something tells me you didn't think this through at all.
No, there are good ideas and there's "pvp off".

Here's a free tip to avoid conflict: "Don't be a dick!"
Nil Mortifi Sine Lucre

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Redblade
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Re: Fact-checking and critical thinking

Post by Redblade » 06 Jul 2022 13:59

nils wrote:
01 Jul 2022 23:07
Lilith wrote:
18 Jun 2022 03:27
why not just have an "options see numbers on/off" or something similar, to level the playing field, clear up misconceptions, and make sure that everyone has access to the same information in a sanctioned way?
Let me start by saying this isn't the worst of ideas, and I know -I- would love being able to base my min-maxing on actual facts. That said, currently I rely on information gathered over two and a half decades of researching, fraternizing and testing, and believe it or not - this holds actual value today. I'd actually feel robbed if made.. well, trivial!

Recently many changes have been made to make the game easier and more approachable for new players. While I applaud these initiatives, they come with ill side-effects too, and I want to highlight the devaluation of experience. An example here is the dude in palanthas that enables total re-distribution of stats. A good idea, and certainly a time-saver, but also a quick and dirty way to jump between guilds with previously unknown ease. I mean damn, having died down to extremely pacifistic and really put in the work towards recovery used to be a badge of honour and neccessary cost in order to go from one class to another. Actual work has value too!

I think the game would be poorer If you enable "options see numbers on/off" because it would serve to severely diminish the value of experience. Sure, there's the argument that it would make certain skills obsolete (see also some guilds lose a little value), but I think this is dwarfed compared to the abovementioned.
Quantum wrote:
01 Jul 2022 18:05
.. while we're at it, options pvp on/off. Those who want to pvp can still do it and jump each other whenever they want to. And everyone else can just not be part of that.

Make the game more flexible and tailored to what people like?
First of all, Genesis has always had pvp. It had pvp when you started playing, and the moment you fell in love with the game it had pvp too. You're suggesting turning Genesis into a different game altogether. There's a better solution: Find another game to play.
Quantum in the future wrote: "But Nils, I suggested we make it electable!"
Yes, but it would effectively end pvp. How, you say?

That's a longer answer, but let me give it a go.

I've always loved the fact that not only does pvp exist, it is also really punishing. I'll openly admit that I can take perverse enjoyment from other people's misery in a game. Schadenfreude, baby! This places me firmly in Bartle's "Killer"-category, and since there's an actual name for this gamer personality, I'm certainly not special for being it. Every game has them - deal with it.

That said I don't miss the old days of pre-recovery one bit. A death would be years lost today. Unfair, period.

Moving on. If a player wants to act like a dick, there's nothing stopping him from harassing, being all together obnoxious and really hone the skill of asshattery. With "pvp off" he is completely safe from retribution. And that's just his or her words, what about actions?

Kill the Rider and enjoy the FBB with "pvp off", knowing full well the Mages can't touch you.
Go bare-bones with your scripts. Kill steal from anyone. "pvp off" becomes your bubble of safety! Not a worry in the world.
Join thieves or worse - become a kender, and rob people 24/7. Caught? Pfft, pvp off!
Feeling like raiding a guild? "pvp off" and slay to your hearts' content, free from consequence.

See, the fact that Genesis has pvp is also it's governing attribute. It positively regulates behaviour and distributes consequences/punishment without engaging the developers or administration when someone fails to.. well, human. It keeps (most) people on their best behaviour. Is it perfect? Not even a little. This is where I want to draw on reality (unlike when discussing game mechanics) and say the world has never been fair either. In this sense, genesis is a pretty good real life simulator in its present state.

Something tells me you didn't think this through at all.
No, there are good ideas and there's "pvp off".

Here's a free tip to avoid conflict: "Don't be a dick!"
<flames> Acting like a dick seems to get one into a lot of conflicts, I can agree on that. But not behaving like one doesn't help you to avoid them one bit if anyone else decides to behave like one anyway. I would really appreciate if you would not imply folks are dicks outside the flames part of these forums and lead a polite conversation :) </flames>

I disagree, PvP off can still be a good idea. You, as you name yourself in the Bartle taxonomy, as a Killer, have no way to see that, I presume :) But others may view it very differently. Others may say that PvP is something that you have to suffer through to play the rest of this great game, but would rather see it gone. I'm not saying that's my case, but I would be careful with bold statements like "this is what you fell in love with".

Perhaps if we take all that you've written (and frankly a lot more) into consideration as a insta-switch-on to the PvP and make the periods in which you can switch back really long (wizards' consideration), it can still work and will prevent exactly the type of behavious you mention while leaving space for players that would never attack another's guildhall or steal 24/7, like the Monks :) Harder to implement, yet possible. I don't think it would end PvP. Just as you enjoy the (to quote from Bartle wikipedia) "process where the Killer takes their strong character to a place where inexperienced or weaker characters reside, and proceeds to kill them repeatedly", I enjoy defending the thematically appropriate areas of any guild that I parttake against foes that could cause harm and I believe many players would still remain on PvP on, to name guilds, in my eyes certainly: Rangers, AA, MM, Knights, PoT, DA, SU, FK, Vams. And certainly a lot of the Mercs and WoHS/SoHm. Don't see how it kills PvP, but it needs to be done with care :)

Don't be mistaken, I enjoy a good PvP - one that has an appropriate place and meaning, not just killing someone I don't like repeatedly because I can. But a measure of control over the "I've done exactly nothing wrong to you, leave me be", I can understand that, especially on the Monks' part.
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nils
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Re: Fact-checking and critical thinking

Post by nils » 08 Jul 2022 23:44

Redblade wrote:
06 Jul 2022 13:59
<flames> Acting like a dick seems to get one into a lot of conflicts, I can agree on that. But not behaving like one doesn't help you to avoid them one bit if anyone else decides to behave like one anyway. I would really appreciate if you would not imply folks are dicks outside the flames part of these forums and lead a polite conversation :) </flames>
I wasn't implying anything, but since you're in the business of assuming everything I do comes with an agenda I can totally understand why you would think that. Perhaps you should heed the advice as such, however, as it's really getting old.

As for periodization of the "pvp off" I fail to see how that somehow cures the issues I mentioned above, except maybe spontaneous use or toggling depending on mood/intent.

The rest of your contribution covers something that does very much happen in other games, but is illegal in Genesis or belongs to a page of history regarding dragon traps that isn't really a problem anymore.
Nil Mortifi Sine Lucre

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