Gauging..

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Not compensating experience gained to the new, slower, reality was a

A good idea
13
45%
A bad idea
16
55%
 
Total votes: 29

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nils
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Gauging..

Post by nils » 03 Dec 2022 02:03

I think nobody disagrees that slower combat has zero drawbacks and that the move was the right one, but simultaneously I wonder - does anyone think not compensating the experience per kill to compensate for the slow down was a good idea?

Feel free to discuss below.
Nil Mortifi Sine Lucre

Budwise
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Re: Gauging..

Post by Budwise » 03 Dec 2022 09:28

Aren't we just back to same tempo as before hitchances got changed? So no biggie.

zizuph
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Re: Gauging..

Post by zizuph » 03 Dec 2022 19:56

We picked a tempo that we expected to be a little faster than before the white hits were changed.

That being said, this was a major change. We are assessing the impact, comparing the results to expectations, and collecting feedback on how it has been felt by players.

Some of the things that we are discussing:
How do players feel about the new speed versus the old? Are they too accustomed to the recent rate?
How important is the progress bar moving at a reasonable speed?
How does this affect death, and PVP?

I do not expect this to be the last change, as our end goal is to make sure it is an enjoyable game. We are actively listening to discussions and trying to make sure we have a good sense of everything as we plan next steps.

Drazson
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Re: Gauging..

Post by Drazson » 03 Dec 2022 22:40

I'll change the order of the questions to avoid vagueness.

1. How important is the progress bar moving at a reasonable speed?

I think that people who are simply growing, chilling and doing all the things that there are to do and explore in Genesis do not care. It's slower now (duh) but the speed was never a concern, they won't count minutes that are needed per prog. Honestly, when I was like expert or below I didn't even have the notion that progress is something that has a pace :D

Of course, even for young'uns there is the influence of big people who will tell them "kabal go brrrr cair adros go brrrr go quest get to myth griiiiiiind", and for the newer players for whom that matters, a slower pace is a big annoying I guess. However, I haven't seen much dismay per se, which makes sense if you can group a bit and make progress within 5-10 minutes at hero or so, who tf cares the progs go at light-speed anyway.

There are also myths that want to login and grind until the sun dies out. As far as I have seen exactly 2 of them have whined about it publically at a great extend (and signature deranged fashion in the case of Wolverine). You probably know this and the releted conversations better than I do. I am not sure how a 250avg person's prog timings are relevant to the actual game but it's in wizworld's plate I guess :D

An important distinction here is to be made for people who notice that combat eats up their resources twice as fast now. I think the whole equipment thing can belong here as well in a way, but I mostly meant herbs for casters, where maintenance costs basically doubled, and that means more time in that department. I do not know if there are more examples, and I'm not sure how impactful that part of the equation really is, I guess those that cast will give their 2 cents.


2. How do players feel about the new speed versus the old? Are they too accustomed to the recent rate?

Having spoken about progress speeds, I can assume this means how the gameplay of combat feels like. I think most can agree it feels better. Using absurd exaggerations, nobody would enjoy combat where whoever hits first deals a gazillion damage and kills, nor would we enjoy fights being so slow that you would notice a Ranger's damage. I think we're drawn into a more sensible pace, and as you've said repeatedly that might help get PvP tools back on the menu.

3. How does this affect death, and PVP?

I do not know anybody that has died since, but I think it's obvious. Recovery will be harsher. If it would have been 2 hours, now it's probably 4? (math is weird so I don't trust my assumption, but anyway). If you're bigger it can be a long damn time more basically.

I think death penalty being a bigger chunk of your size but being accelerated overall (maybe inversely-related to your distance from your real size) might help a bit. I believe Dhez made a suggestion about recovery as well. I think it would be nice to keep or even increase the impact of a death size-wise, but still make the time needed to fully recover smaller.

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Riva
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Re: Gauging..

Post by Riva » 16 Dec 2022 22:08

I'd like to preface this by admitting I'm salty about the changes, and I think they were bad overall. Combat feels completely unrewarding at the current tempo, and it's not particularly fun to watch every fight take an eternity while you slowly whittle down every enemy's massive health pool. So do take that into consideration if my tone makes me seem a bit miffed.

1. How important is the progress bar moving at a reasonable speed?

Extremely. If it feels like I'm doing three times[1] the work for progress then something feels off with the core gameplay loop of grinding. As it stands every encounter is death by a thousand cuts. That's not terrible on its own, of course, a game with slow combat can be fun. But the problem is when you extend that out to a grinding session. It's hard to encourage players to engage with your gameplay loop if it feels as if the reward isn't matching the effort they put into the game. Grinding itself doesn't feel as good as before, and the reward for putting my time in to play the game feels worse.

2. How do players feel about the new speed versus the old? Are they too accustomed to the recent rate?

Paired with the current rate of xp it feels really bad. Say what you want about the evasion meta at the very least it felt like progress was reasonable. What's more it seemed like it was a lot easier to grow and catch up to the bigger players. If it's a marathon race the current pace feels like someone stopped me halfway, kneecapped me, and then moved the finish line further down the road. So we have a situation where players who were smart took advantage of fast xp while they had it and now everyone else can take three times[1] as long to catch up.

3. How does this affect death, and PVP?

As it stands it feels as if death is so huge a punishment why would I engage in risky behaviors like PvP? If I fail and die xp is so slow now recovery will be a long annoying process. If I win I'm the jerk who's now forced someone else to go through that long annoying process. If I win I feel bad, if I lose I feel even worse. That is, if the fight runs to its conclusion at all. The least painful solution will 9/10 times be to just run away and not engage with the incredibly punishing system currently in place.

What's encouraging me to play with any of the gameplay loops? PvE isn't rewarding my time with meaningful progress and PvP is too much of a risk to actually be a fun system to engage with. I guess all that's left is questing and idling in Sparkle chatting all day?

[1]Three times is an arbitrary number, I don't know the actual maths but it feels at least that high.

TaranGoatWalker
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Re: Gauging..

Post by TaranGoatWalker » 17 Dec 2022 21:25

Idea I saw on discord.

Remove the health boost that was added post white hit changes?

Just a thought.
T
Stabby stabby stab stab.

Budwise
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Re: Gauging..

Post by Budwise » 18 Dec 2022 09:06

Riva, why make it an us vs. them-scenario?

For one thing xpgathering has always been slow unless you are a triggerrobot
and run around mindlessly killing all day. Took me a fair bit of time to recover death.

Also the bigger you get the more the brakes come on with growth AFAIK.
So you are trying to catch up to people that are slowing down growthwise.
The smaller you are the faster you grow is my impression.

Also it's not that slow now except maybe relative. Only had the added speed
for 8 months or so? So consider it a return to normal.

Disclaimer: I'm not a wiz or have access to wizinfo. :)

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Riva
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Re: Gauging..

Post by Riva » 18 Dec 2022 12:14

Riva, why make it an us vs. them-scenario?
Well I did frontload my complaints by saying it was just that, complaints. There's no us vs anyone, there's just me expressing some frustrations I have with how this new system is functioning.
For one thing xpgathering has always been slow unless you are a triggerrobot
and run around mindlessly killing all day. Took me a fair bit of time to recover death.
I'd for sure say if you want to grow, like seriously grow, that's kinda what you need to do. Optimizing triggers and routs to get as much xp as you can as fast as you can. Nils wrote a fantastic post about it here:
viewtopic.php?t=4029

As he pointed out it is roughly 35 fantas from legend to myth, beyond that some players are sitting at 150+ fantas since becoming a myth. That is what I am referring to when I say it has become even more difficult to catch up to being "big." If before you had to grind for 12 hours a day to get a fanta you can imagine how much a massive hit to combat speed slows that down. Suddenly your 12 hour grind is looking more like 18. Now throw in a death and recovery to the mix and the frustration and time only grows... And, truthfully, I think these are low estimates, considering the list of solid xp spots, alignment restrictions, guild choices, team comp. etc. etc.

I'd go a step further and argue that maybe _because_ this disparity is so huge that yes, mindless trigger hunting all day for 12+ hours is necessary. Lazy grinding in Gont for a couple hours a day for a few years will absolutely get you there, sure, but it's not exactly the optimal way to grow.
Also it's not that slow now except maybe relative. Only had the added speed
for 8 months or so? So consider it a return to normal.
If a baby myth took advantage of the random 12 hour fanta we made up, and got one a day for 8 months that would be roughly 240 fantas give or take. Bearing in mind these are all random estimates and I'm not taking account for the slowdown brutality introduces. I'm aware 240 is a massive exaggeration that you'd only get if this was your entire life and you did nothing but sit at a computer and grind all day. However, I hope it illustrates my point. My post was in no way an "Us vs. them" wizards suck and are out to get me post. It was "I see some flaws here that maybe should be addressed moving forward post.

Like I said, those who took advantage of the fast combat grew fast and now those who'd have to just start that climb will have to do it with far more effort and time than they did. I wouldn't try and ignorantly posit that there should be no grinding in an mmo. But I would like to argue that the chore of grinding and growth has been made worse. Also, keep in mind, I'm not suggesting fast xp and fast combat magically fix these issues, because obviously they don't. But _I think_ that in a game without a hard limit on size there will always be a disparity between those've grinded like hell for 20 years (And honestly good for them, they worked really hard to get there) and fresh baby myth who was a greenhorn just a few months ago (And good for them too! That's a lot of hard work as well.). I'm just pointing out that it has been made that much harder to get even close.

I will admit it may seem weird for me to be focusing so heavily on that as the ideal goal. But, for a lot of players grinding to huge stat averages _is_ the endgame of Genesis. My frustration is coming a bit from seeing that endgame pushed that much further away from those starting out on that path. I'm aware a lot of players don't see that as the endgame goal, but for those that do it's a bit frustrating.

All in all I'd be perfectly happy if I was vastly blowing this out of proportion and the actual numbers just make me look like an idiot who doesn't know what they're talking about. Because I promise I'm really am going out of my way to not sound like a jerk here. On a preference level I will admit I liked the snappy fast combat we had. Divorcing the idea of xp from grinding for a second, personally I'd say it was fun to play. My ADHD chimp brain got a lot more satisfaction out of watching bigger damage numbers rack up fast and I'm a bit sad that that's gone. That said I'm not a giant baby and I know I'll adjust to whatever new normal is set.

Drazson
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Re: Gauging..

Post by Drazson » 19 Dec 2022 08:00

I think we need a different server for y'all to grind in.

kelrhys
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Re: Gauging..

Post by kelrhys » 19 Dec 2022 23:38

zizuph wrote:
03 Dec 2022 19:56
We picked a tempo that we expected to be a little faster than before the white hits were changed.

That being said, this was a major change. We are assessing the impact, comparing the results to expectations, and collecting feedback on how it has been felt by players.

Some of the things that we are discussing:
How do players feel about the new speed versus the old? Are they too accustomed to the recent rate?
How important is the progress bar moving at a reasonable speed?
How does this affect death, and PVP?

I do not expect this to be the last change, as our end goal is to make sure it is an enjoyable game. We are actively listening to discussions and trying to make sure we have a good sense of everything as we plan next steps.
In order to make good decisions for an organization, it is vital to understand the core values of the organization and use those as a guidepost. In this case, the organization is the Genesis community.

Players have posted their thoughts on what these values are for Genesis in various places, here are the key ones I have gathered:
  • The game is really four things, at the end of the day: Grinding, gear hunting, PVP and RP. Most activities you can funnel into those four. -Rache
  • This is a game which is an endless grind at core.
    What makes it special are the people playing and the conflicts created -Amberlee
  • Other core values are questing which is key to new character development and discovery/exploration. These appeal to explorer and achiever types and can be an end game in themselves for some.
The game as it exists is not an endlessly rewarding grind, it is a grind to the soft cap, at which point the reward becomes intentionally less. Each of these core areas are inter-related and need to be rewarded in a balanced fashion to make playing worthwhile for everyone at all levels.

Of course some players hate the new slower speed/xp gain. They were getting casterlike damage without paying the price of downtime to offset it, and the game was never built for that, nor should it be. It violated the value of grinding balance.

Of course those who reached the soft cap in less than a year instead of 3-5 years feel like crap when the spigot is turned off. It accelerated the question of what to do when the grind is no longer rewarding. It would have come eventually, but now it is staring them in the face.

Should the game be changed to award more xp, effectively raising the soft cap and speeding up growth for everyone? No, because it will exacerbate the existing infinite size problem in pve and increase the size disparity issues between new and old characters in pvp. This violates the value of grinding balance, and PVP, as they are very much inter-related.

The solution for this has always existed in Genesis, and I already see many more "newbies" lately, so it seems some are already taking advantage. It is positive for all of the game's core values to have a balance of active big and smaller characters, rather than a glut at the top 24/7. It provides opportunity for more guilds to thrive, and for the experienced not-so-new-newbies to help the true newbies in character rather than out of character. It relieves the pressure on gear hunting and provides opportunity for PVP for PVP sake at the level where it is most fun and least painful: below myth.

PVP in Genesis is not built for dueling like it is in other games. Instead, it is usually a consequence for disrespect or rule-breaking, often executed as a gank, but not always. It seems like this value is the one that has caused much of the thrash - the game overhaul seemed to be an attempt to equalize all guild classes so fair 1v1 duels could occur. But that can never be true with the size disparities, and those that have bothered to become enormous are motivated to dominate, and often travel in packs to boot. Meanwhile guilds are now more copy-paste vanilla with less unique spice, which vastly diminishes the reward of the roleplay core value of creating new characters to live a different lifestyle.

The value of PVP in Genesis as enforcement of respect or consequence of conflict rather than wild west chaos is one of the things that differentiates Genesis from other games and makes it special. It allows those who don't want to participate to stay out of it by being respectful to all, by learning the rules of how to do so. And vice-versa.

Nothing undermines morale in a community more than ineffective thrash. It is hard for leaders to appear to do nothing while some of those they serve are screaming loudly. But the worst thing to do is take action that will compound the problem rather than resolve it, even for those who are doing the screaming. It is truly a thankless job made palatable only by knowing that by sticking to your core values you are making the best decisions possible.

It takes time to see how changes will play out. To recharge morale, it would be great to see improvements that are unquestionably aligned to the core values of the community.

Like improving the end game content that already exists and is THIS close to being great...the Krynn war system. It has achievements, but the rewards are lackluster and it is unnecessarily restrictive on who can join which side. Open it up, let people roleplay it however they want since it is the only game in town. Offer rewards, both in the form of titles and gear commensurate to the risk, time and effort required, which is considerable and exhausting.

Maybe add more spice to guilds too, so newbies have somewhere interesting to go.

As always, a huge thank you to all of the immortals who work hard to keep Genesis going and make it better.

Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to all in the Genesis community!

Sincerely,
Kelrhys

“A leader takes people where they want to go. A great leader takes people where they don’t necessarily want to go but ought to be.”
— Rosalynn Carter

“Not that the story need be long, but it will take a long while to make it short.” -Henry David Thoreau

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