Racial stats rebalance

[Quantum]

All: I think this discussion may mean option A is actually the preferred solution. No race has any benefits over anybody else, full stop, and learning preferences is how you define your stats. It feels like any diversity causes conflict and concern. The goal is to let people pick race to define themselves, and not be shoehorned into a specific choice because combat dictates it.

As was brought up previously, this means no one will want to be goblin since you clearly do not want to interfere in domain specific goblin racism.

I was also under the impression that due to this widespread anti-goblin racism, goblins were allowed to be strong killing machines.

If you really want race to be something we each pick to define ourselves, you also need to force knights, Minas Tirith, mages and every other place currently excluding goblins to accept them. Who in their right mind would choose goblin if there are no stat benefits and you are locked out of so many areas and guilds?

[Riva]

I think there's a big difference between "people won't choose goblins because they don't get a huge combat advantage" and "people won't choose goblins because they can't enter Minas Tirith." People will still play goblins won't they? To be an orc for ME RP or a Red Fang for a wolf mount. The people who _love_ playing goblins would still play goblins surely? And the people who were forced to because it's just the only good option for min-maxing won't have to RP a race they don't really want to.

At least that's the impression I get. In the vast majority of fantasy goblins are the default bad creatures? It makes total sense that choosing to be a goblin would come with the disadvantages inherent with choosing the race that is feared and hated. I don't think it makes sense to argue for the extreme of goblin being the best race by using another extreme of "goblins are so hated they can't get into MT and it ruins the game entirely for them." It seems like a huge exaggeration to say that since goblins are banned from a few places for RP and lore reasons that removing their meta importance suddenly makes them the worst option in the game.

I like this new idea because it A. removes the lack of meaningful choice in the options you get and B. makes race choice still matter as far as a build goes, just not to the extent where it can completely ruin your experience if you fail to make the optimal choice. Personally I wouldn't want every race to just be human stats but with a different skin the races should still matter and I think a slight stat change and abilities (a la racial guilds) are the perfect way to implement it.

[Ckrik]

With all due respect: the question you ask is one of things you havent considered in the choice you already MADE.

The mere fact that the choice is already made, means you guys decided to throw a large number of things overboard that (may) hold value to your playerbase. The mere fact that we are still playing this game with current stat-distributions over 20+ years may hint that things arent as horrible as you picture them to be. If you are you asking feedback if people actually agree with taking this road, I suspect you get different results.

There will be a lot of consequences, I cannot judge which ones you accounted for and which you didnt. I think you are making the game more bland. I sense the same 'we know better than you'-attitude that I heard when white hits buff were implemented almost 2 years ago. Good luck with the results.

My 2cents, fire away.

Note that one of the things we're thinking about doing is allow you to weigh your primary and secondary focus stats even more. We're allowing you to choose so that character builds like goblin priests are actually viable. You can still be a buff goblin that has terrible mental stats if you wish it so. The point is to allow the player to choose the major portion of the stats while simultaneously preserving some thematic differences.

[zizuph]

With all due respect: the question you ask is one of things you havent considered in the choice you already MADE.

The mere fact that the choice is already made, means you guys decided to throw a large number of things overboard that (may) hold value to your playerbase. The mere fact that we are still playing this game with current stat-distributions over 20+ years may hint that things arent as horrible as you picture them to be. If you are you asking feedback if people actually agree with taking this road, I suspect you get different results.

There will be a lot of consequences, I cannot judge which ones you accounted for and which you didnt. I think you are making the game more bland. I sense the same 'we know better than you'-attitude that I heard when white hits buff were implemented almost 2 years ago. Good luck with the results.

My 2cents, fire away.

I have spoken to many people about this, and the racial imbalance has consistently been the top of the list of their complaints. There was a lot of discussion beforehand, and collecting of feedback. Unfortunately there is no mechanism to ask everybody, and many forum discussions are driven by the loudest speakers, and not the general populace.

There is always going to be a feeling of the 'we know better than you', as wizards simply have access to much more information than players do, and numbers are hidden to you. But this is all a collaborative effort, and much of what wizards work on is driven by what players bring up that may need addressing. Many of my magic system changes came directly from player feedback, and trying to make sure they had it fair versus melee.

[Quantum]

There is always going to be a feeling of the 'we know better than you', as wizards simply have access to much more information than players do, and numbers are hidden to you. But this is all a collaborative effort, and much of what wizards work on is driven by what players bring up that may need addressing. Many of my magic system changes came directly from player feedback, and trying to make sure they had it fair versus melee.

I am honestly not sure you actually do know what this feels like. My guess is that you haven't played a goblin for 30 years, so what do you actually know about this? Your condescending tone is very unpleasant.

Also, that input you have, is that only from your friends, your guild, your neighbour? Or is it from a wide range of players in all guilds and across all in-game races?

It sounds like you have already made up your mind, so we can shut up now. Was that the intention, or are we going to actually debate the changes?

A confused and somewhat disappointed Quantum

[Quantum]

Note that one of the things we're thinking about doing is allow you to weigh your primary and secondary focus stats even more. We're allowing you to choose so that character builds like goblin priests are actually viable. You can still be a buff goblin that has terrible mental stats if you wish it so. The point is to allow the player to choose the major portion of the stats while simultaneously preserving some thematic differences.

Does this mean you will institute a mud-wide policy of letting goblins join all guilds?

[buddah]

I think there's a big difference between "people won't choose goblins because they don't get a huge combat advantage" and "people won't choose goblins because they can't enter Minas Tirith." People will still play goblins won't they? To be an orc for ME RP or a Red Fang for a wolf mount. The people who _love_ playing goblins would still play goblins surely? And the people who were forced to because it's just the only good option for min-maxing won't have to RP a race they don't really want to.

Buddah: Yes, many chose to be goblin for their relative dominance in melee combat. After a change like this, things like the red fang mount would be the draw. We expect many picked goblin for combat bonuses, rather than thematics, and want them to be whatever race they feel more attuned to.

Thank you all for acknowledging my post!

I apologize that my post sparked tension. Perhaps I did not articulate it clearly and it was instead too comical. I am all forward to this new stat system! Zizuph the concept is fantastic! I am quite leaning to becoming a Kender as my racial in the coming year as I've always pictured myself as a happy whimsical type than a goblin. I even left the Red Fang because the titles... were a little cruel.

I am just worried in general about the goblin race as a whole regardless if I will be playing as one. Will the Wizards consider adjusting I suppose the Red Fang or Grunts in the future depending on the population percentages in the coming months? I suppose the changes are focused on evening the playing field where one can rp as one desires as opposed to diversity, however is it really an even playing field if one race is absent?

I may not be using the quote functions properly. Apologies if I am missing the point in some aspect.

Sincerely,
Buddah

[Ckrik]

Note that one of the things we're thinking about doing is allow you to weigh your primary and secondary focus stats even more. We're allowing you to choose so that character builds like goblin priests are actually viable. You can still be a buff goblin that has terrible mental stats if you wish it so. The point is to allow the player to choose the major portion of the stats while simultaneously preserving some thematic differences.

Does this mean you will institute a mud-wide policy of letting goblins join all guilds?

No. That's still up to the individual GM and guild. But a goblin base MM or PoT should be viable. Maybe even EC since the old Elemental Worshippers didn't have race restrictions if I remember correctly.

Elves get race based thematic restrictions as well BTW e.g. ban from entering MM via gates, no RDA, no AA, no Shield Bearers. Even if you choose human there are restrictions somewhere.

The stat focus choice is up to you. You can continue playing a not-so-smart but uber-strong goblin if you'd like. But now maybe you want to get more out of being a Warlock or Minstrel and focus on INT/WIS. The character is what you make of it and not stat bonuses and deficits that someone chose 30 years ago.

[Chanele]

A great and needed change.

I would personally go for option C with new minor differencies to races. That might require more work though so this suggestion is good enough.

I have played a goblin and felt the hit when I changed race. It was like having a "free" pronounced strenght and constitution imbue and the drawbacks was negligable for a warrior type. That system is very unbalanced and need a change!

Kudos for the hard work you putting into the game!

/Chanele

[TaranGoatWalker]

There is always going to be a feeling of the 'we know better than you', as wizards simply have access to much more information than players do, and numbers are hidden to you. But this is all a collaborative effort, and much of what wizards work on is driven by what players bring up that may need addressing. Many of my magic system changes came directly from player feedback, and trying to make sure they had it fair versus melee.

I am honestly not sure you actually do know what this feels like. My guess is that you haven't played a goblin for 30 years, so what do you actually know about this? Your condescending tone is very unpleasant.

Also, that input you have, is that only from your friends, your guild, your neighbour? Or is it from a wide range of players in all guilds and across all in-game races?

It sounds like you have already made up your mind, so we can shut up now. Was that the intention, or are we going to actually debate the changes?

A confused and somewhat disappointed Quantum

Most of you current goblins did all the MT quests anyway, in some other form.
Rangers will never truly accept orc-kin. Called RP