Racial stats rebalance

[Quantum]

Most of you current goblins did all the MT quests anyway, in some other form.
Rangers will never truly accept orc-kin. Called RP
[/quote]

This is part of the problem. You continue the goblin racism here. Now you call it roleplay. The problem is that goblins have always been the punching bag "because they could take it". If you remove those stat bonuses, not revisiting every single domain still maintains the racial bias against goblins. It's easy to wash your hands and say each individual guildmaster and liege will have to take care of that. But that just maintains the racism, because we all know this will never happen. No other changes will be made. So please stop dumping the issue like that.

I really hope you won't ruin goblins and elves and what not unless you actually go through all domains and make all guilds equally viable regardless of race. Otherwise your entire point of "be who you want to be" falls completely flat. We can't be who we want to be. Are you actually going to let us be any race we want, or is that just a fake excuse that will never be implemented? Please be honest.

And yes, more vampires speaking up FOR the change since their humans get a massive buff when everyelse are nerfed. Can we get a vampire free thread? What actually happens to vampires now? They were forced to be humans so they would not get goblin stats, instead they got see in dark, see invis, scry, heal, improved healing/fatigue without the need for drinking or eating. They got all the good stuff, and none of the racial drawbacks. Are they going to be nerfed to rebalance them?

This entire discussion sounds really hollow. It feels like a "buff the vampires campaign" has succeded by nerfing everyone else. We had these racial stats for 30 years. Keep them.

You may not feel the way I do. I respect that. Please respect my right to have my opinion.

[Snowrose]

After reading a lot of opinions and finding out what dis does for magic users

elves would probably make more RP sense with there weakness as str or con, since dis is less just bravery and more magic resistance

most people who play an elf are used to taking a physical hit. and if you look at elves in d&d or other settings they are thematically more magic resistant than humans. as they are often resistant to charm and sleep. and they are often very well disciplined due to longevity. looking down on lesser races.

Practically i know you were trying to stick with the drawbacks being both physical or both mental, but there are a couple races out there that make RP sense to break that,

such as gobbos taking a physical bonus mental stat hit lers them still be combat focused without bring op. and it makes sence rply as some gobbos litterally have an an ability to cook a flea if they think to hard, and in lore a lot of magic has been created to work better against goblin kind.

dwarves make sence. its a pretty classic this to penalize dwarves on dex.

hobbits are often described as pretty strong and hardy for their size, so about human norm i could see taking a bit of a dis hit if it did cross physical and mental. as you do not often see hobbit mages in any setting. most hobbts fear or are awed by even simply magic

gomes are like elves that should probably have a mental boost and a phys weakness

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if elves HAVE to take a mental hit i could sooner see elves being low INT due to isolating themselves from other races, so a lot of their knowledge is a tad outdated or bias to their own beliefs.

this is all based on what i can see it doing for choosing a race via rp/lore logic, using things like d&d as a guide. Genesis gamewize im fine with the stats as they serve my personal needs, but lorewize certain races to make sence to not be +phys -phys or +mental -mental

[TripleM]

I have spoken to many people about this, and the racial imbalance has consistently been the top of the list of their complaints. There was a lot of discussion beforehand, and collecting of feedback. Unfortunately there is no mechanism to ask everybody, and many forum discussions are driven by the loudest speakers, and not the general populace.

There is always going to be a feeling of the 'we know better than you', as wizards simply have access to much more information than players do, and numbers are hidden to you. But this is all a collaborative effort, and much of what wizards work on is driven by what players bring up that may need addressing. Many of my magic system changes came directly from player feedback, and trying to make sure they had it fair versus melee.

I am certain if one were to ask an inner circle of human-based-character individuals if they were to approve of the suggested changes that one would get encouragement to continue in that direction. I have no trouble understanding that.
That does not address the point I was trying to make though.

Good for you the move order is right. After this return CC!

[zizuph]

There is always going to be a feeling of the 'we know better than you', as wizards simply have access to much more information than players do, and numbers are hidden to you. But this is all a collaborative effort, and much of what wizards work on is driven by what players bring up that may need addressing. Many of my magic system changes came directly from player feedback, and trying to make sure they had it fair versus melee.

I am honestly not sure you actually do know what this feels like. My guess is that you haven't played a goblin for 30 years, so what do you actually know about this? Your condescending tone is very unpleasant.

Also, that input you have, is that only from your friends, your guild, your neighbour? Or is it from a wide range of players in all guilds and across all in-game races?

It sounds like you have already made up your mind, so we can shut up now. Was that the intention, or are we going to actually debate the changes?

A confused and somewhat disappointed Quantum

It is not my attempt to be condescending, Quantum. I am simply noting that the information difference makes it hard for us to have conversations because of the information disparity. Wizards don't have an easy way to avoid the appearance of an 'we know it better than you' attitude that TripleM mentioned. That is all I meant.

For my part:
Yes, I have played a goblin for a significant period of time, and it was not 30 years ago. I am aware of the Knight's Spur, and the way goblins are treated there. I know about the Barbarians in the Tharkadan area, who treat them friendly. I know of their being blocked from Minas Tirith, and have been a proponent of equality in quest access. I can speak to the specific pieces of armour and weapons that goblins are blocked from, and also benefit from, for their race.

Yes, I talked to many people across a spectrum. As have the others. Cherek in particular I find very approachable to talk about anything - he is a VERY accessible Keeper and likes to understand people's perspectives.

We are trying to have a conversation here, and laid out in detail why we think this is the best approach. We do not wish to leave in place a system where the core complaint remains, and unfortunately in some of your ideas, that is still there. That doesn't mean we are ignoring your suggestions, or anything else posted here, outside of favoritism innuendo.

[Ckrik]

And yes, more vampires speaking up FOR the change since their humans get a massive buff when everyelse are nerfed. Can we get a vampire free thread? What actually happens to vampires now? They were forced to be humans so they would not get goblin stats, instead they got see in dark, see invis, scry, heal, improved healing/fatigue without the need for drinking or eating. They got all the good stuff, and none of the racial drawbacks. Are they going to be nerfed to rebalance them?

Read the announcement carefully again. All races will get buffs vs NPCs to around the same magnitude. The non-human races just have slightly different buff distributions to preserve some thematic continuity.

The change has no bearing to undeads and humans did not get a huge buff versus other player races!!!

[cyork2]

The original question: what haven't we thought of.... maybe you have thought of these but just in case:

Someone picks a new race that is not allowed in their current guilds.... I know this can happen in the current game (meet Lars etc) but not all guilds account for this and properly kick someone out if they change race. I'm sorry I don't know all the guilds that fail this but for sure the Dunedan has had Elves in it as one example. I would ask Wizards to keep their eyes out and be prepared to manually force people out of some guilds if necessary.

Will a race and stat change be properly reflected for Ogres? I have no idea how they work and if the race level stat differences are thrown out when you are on Ogre or if they still carry through at some level... maybe a non-issue.

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Thank you for recognizing that such a major change should come with an option to rebalance and/or change races. Instead of doing this via the Tehmaturgist, I suggest allowing everyone a free death / change through Lars. This new change is one of several changes that have had massive impacts on the game and people should be able to make more substantial changes to reflect their desires in light of all of these changes (meaning - being able to leave a guild that kills you and pick your new race as part of changing how you play the game without having to deal with the death penalty, which is especially annoying right now).

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The goblin penalty is a lot more 'real' than I ever thought, until I played one. If you start as a goblin you reach a point in questing where you basically feel like you have to switch races, quest and then switch back. If goblin is so insanely OP why aren't there more of them, oh yeah, because there are major down sides! Making this change without addressing that issue seems like it will obviously result in very few goblins.

With much respect for all your hard work, relying on player opinions is not a winning recipe. If you make decisions based on what players DO (actions) rather than what they say, you will have a much better chance of steering Genesis towards a bright future. The people who aren't here, who have left, are a massive voice that is not accounted for if you ask for player opinions and don't we all want more people here (to a point). Other issues certainly can be driven by the people who are here, for example, everyone is a goblin - well obviously something is off and needs to be addressed.... no one stays in X guild and most of the people who join it wind up just leaving Gen entirely - maybe step in there. Everyone who uses swords has to have the same 1 or 2 top swords etc.

Thanks for all of your thoughtful time and effort. Who knows, maybe more people will like the new racial system.

[zizuph]

Thank you for recognizing that such a major change should come with an option to rebalance and/or change races. Instead of doing this via the Tehmaturgist, I suggest allowing everyone a free death / change through Lars. This new change is one of several changes that have had massive impacts on the game and people should be able to make more substantial changes to reflect their desires in light of all of these changes (meaning - being able to leave a guild that kills you and pick your new race as part of changing how you play the game without having to deal with the death penalty, which is especially annoying right now).

The Thaumaturgist will send you to Lars, without the death experience cost. You'll go through the same process you normally would.

[Greneth]

There have been more complaints and discussions on racial imbalance fixes than anything except for when items didnt save. So im glad to see things moving forward in a plan to change this.

Ive still not understood how fixing a glaring imbalance somehow = bland when this change opens up so many more doors for player combinations. People are always going to min/max but for those who care more about the RP they can at least have fun with a character and be what they want to be without being racially locked due to stats. You want to be a Goblin Mage? Go, you wont be penalized to the ground for it. Gnome Fighter with a Caster Layman? Now viable.

This isnt the 90s anymore, we have enough quests and regular events to where MT, Imladris and Rangers arent needed to max out. I have made several without them, still maxed and we now have -more- quests since they were made. Maybe it was due to events? Some other wizard probably already has crunched the numbers to be sure. Either way much easier to quests as a goblin now compared to when it actually hurt to not have that access.

Now that being said, I do think it would be a good idea to review/make it so places like MT cant discern your base race. If a human minotaur can enter? So should a goblin minotaur. Same for guilds.

[Nerull]

Toss in some disguise for goblins to enter MT for questing purposes since the amount of xp locked in there is quite substantial? If we want proper balance parity, it probably should entail most of the available questxp that the game offers aswell, for all races. Oh, same for goblin and questchains elsewhere (vk?).

Just some thoughts.

[Ckrik]

Toss in some disguise for goblins to enter MT for questing purposes since the amount of xp locked in there is quite substantial? If we want proper balance parity, it probably should entail most of the available questxp that the game offers aswell, for all races. Oh, same for goblin and questchains elsewhere (vk?).

Just some thoughts.

Yes. It's on my docket of things to do. Cherek and I tried to get you to volunteer to code it a while back. Are you raising your hand now?