Pros and Cons of numbers

[Zhabou]

Greetings all,

Genesis has a long history of hiding numbers from players. Which isn't to say that the numbers don't leak out in hushed tones over vile beverages in dingy backroom dives. From what I can tell, there are 3 pros for this: tradition, discovery and immersion. There's nothing worse than wrecking a 30 year legacy of secrets to break the 4th wall, or so the logic goes. I'm, of course, asking for more reasons because these three seem, well ... paltry compared to the advantages of sharing the numbers.

1) Ease for players

Having access - perhaps through help-files, so as to maintain some of the fourth wall - to numbers would make Genesis easier. This might not be what some players want - that lifer with the testing machinery already coded or a good friend who happens to be a naughty wizard might be jealous of their knowledge, but I suspect that most players would appreciate a common knowledge base.

2) Player testing

There's only one hard and fast rule of coding. Things break. The truths you held to be self evident when you made this thing will twist and shatter in the future. Especially if you do lots of changes. There are 20k+ rooms in Genesis, thousands of items and NPCs. If, as a software organization, you haven't got 100% testing coverage, you're relying on your user-base to test your code. This terrible situation is the predictable result of continuously running a game from before automated code testing. If your user base doesn't know what they're testing against, you're going to have a lot of garbage bug reports which makes it really dis-heartening to stay on top of them.

3) credibility for wizards

There's been a lot of reliance on something called CAID. I applaud the wizards who invented, implement and rely on this concept to bring a level of parity to the guilds, but as a communication device, it's utter garbage. If you can't share the numbers and what they mean, it's like me telling you that I [don't] trust you because of your TRUFIDENCE score. Which I can't share with you. And I can't share how to calculate. And I can't share how I invent the portion of it that isn't mathematical, but I can tell you that we get together to talk about that portion and we come to consensus. Transparency just seems like a lot easier way to gain credibility.

4) communication for wizards

There are other reasons, to be sure, but the last reason I'll mention is that wizards find themselves in the uncomfortable position of having to tell people that they are wrong (and the wizards are usually right about this - not always, but they have a better track record than I do because they have numbers and access to code). That sucks, and I'm sorry you've had to go through it. Telling somebody they are wrong is an art that humans are notoriously bad at (see politics). It makes people view you as an enemy and stop listening. I've quite enjoyed the smug satisfaction of telling somebody how wrong they are, but it's the small Zhabou that does that - the one that's feeling bad about herself and needs to eat a sandwich and take a nap. I can't imagine that we have any wizards that enjoy this part of the thankless volunteer position they signed up for. The good news is, you can advocate to start sharing more information. End the cycle of mis-information and recrimination.

Please, add reasons pro and con. Remember, we only get about 15 responses tops before this devolves beyond salvage

[TaranGoatWalker]

Numbers... as I'm sure the administration will say, just aren't genesis. I think we all know what that means, one of the many things that makes genesis truly special.

[Yoritomo]

Coming from MUDs that are all numbers, I've left it at "just about right", because I do enjoy the immersion.

*However*, in I think a similar vein to this thought, though maybe slightly different, I would like a bit more clarity about "what affects what" in regards to skills, stats, abilities.

I'm not looking to see something as numerical as "every 5 points in swords skill raises your effective damage multiplier with swords by .2", but rather something like "higher dexterity results in higher hit rate for melee weapons, and higher damage for missile weapons". In guild help files "this ability makes use of your STR score and polearm skill to hit both harder and more accurately."

My reason for wanting this to be more clear and consistent (I've found some of this info through scattered help files, library books, old forum posts...it's all over and of various ages) is it, in my mind, helps in crafting the character that you want to have. Every game system will do these things differently, so it's nice for the new player especially if you can have a character image, and easily look at the things you need to adjust to reach that image, while also maintaining an effective character within the game system.

So, I guess the short answer is, keep numbers as is, but improve/increase information available. I think it might keep good immersion, but also help with some of Zhabou's points too, especially 1 and 4.

[Snowrose]

I think people can really fixate on numbers especially if they only vaguely know what they mean. if important decision making numbers are not given people will make up their own. often wrong,

im not saying wizards need to number everything that can be just as bad. but it is important to know at least what numbers words translate into. and what the effects of stuff we need to choose between are.

Not knowing what something really does
due to someone guessing can lead to people undervaluing a skill or power, or overvaluing useless skills

then they get upset about not having something they don't really need, because they falsely think it will boost something or be better than what they got.
(i've done this to ziz)

[Skythus]

I think exact numbers kill the fun of it. I've got progress levels, health levels etc enumerated so if I whack a monster and it goes from Feeling Very Well to Sore I know I've done 2 levels of damage. I'm not privy to how much HP that actually is, could be the edge of Sore or almost Slightly Hurt.

Should this be an official part of Genesis like <options numbers on>? It could work but I not as the default. It's fun to have some mystery and the rough estimates can be widely available in community client packages.


On paper I can see more pros than cons, however I think that fixating on numbers will damage the culture.

I am also a Souls player and have the intense urge to minmax. If I see that I'm doing 10 less damage using my staff than an ultra-catalyst I might be compelled to use the catalyst because it saves time fighting. At the moment without numbers, I can have a blast whacking monsters with my staff.

I know some people find the primary joy in roleplaying, but where the grind is the endgame minimizing times between progress will take over.

Pro:
Less hours spent comparing equipment with each other and testing while grinding
Possibility for new meta builds
Experience grinds may change

Con:
Hidden gem equipment will be sought out
Minmaxing (say hello to our gnome overlords)

If stats people pasted on discord are correct, all races have around 660 in total stats when they are on the level humans are 100 in everything. (thus humans total 600).

Exception is gnome, 670

[Drazson]

*However*, in I think a similar vein to this thought, though maybe slightly different, I would like a bit more clarity about "what affects what" in regards to skills, stats, abilities.

So, I guess the short answer is, keep numbers as is, but improve/increase information available. I think it might keep good immersion, but also help with some of Zhabou's points too, especially 1 and 4.

I agree!