Seperation of melee and magic weapons.

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Quantum
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Seperation of melee and magic weapons.

Post by Quantum » 27 Mar 2023 18:38

Hello there

The monks guild had an interesting conversation today regarding melee weapons and spell enhancers. Why is it that some weapons are really strong spell enhancers, when they are not really meant for mages? Clubs, swords, axes ets. These are melee weapons. So why do they enhance spells?

In the same vein, we also found it somewhat strange that some weapon types had several strong spell enhancers, while others did not. As such I would like to present the idea of melee/spell separation.

Polearms, swords, clubs, axes etc for melee only. And polearms (staves), wands and held items (orbs, grimoires etc) for spells. And if something is strong in one area(melee/Spell), it is not in another. We realize this might have a negative impact on some hybrids, but at the moment, only some hybrids are viable, while others are not - I'm looking at you polearm rangers who seem kind of hamstrung. Which seems kind of unbalanced. Instead we thought mages should have one set of items, warriors another. And if a warrior wants to cast a spell, hold a grimoire or similar to get that spell enhancing ability. Or, as is seen in many D&D settings, wield a sword in one hand and an orb of somethingness in the other.

With best regards,
Quantum

Yoritomo
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Re: Seperation of melee and magic weapons.

Post by Yoritomo » 28 Mar 2023 08:23

Zizuph just pointed out that the best enhancers are not melee weapons. I think his point was exactly what you've said, if they are a great melee weapon, the enhancer power is not equally as great. I don't have any experience outside Krynn, but I've yet to see any arcane caster choosing to use an enhancer sword over a more potent enhancer wand/orb/staff, unless for a niche combat benefit, or for personal style choice.

So why argue for reducing choice? Why argue for reducing effectiveness of say, a good enhancer sword that a melee occ/magic layman enjoys? I understand it doesn't match many classical fantasy settings, but Genesis as a game system needs to be able to allow for potential combinations like glad/lock or knight/oots where a weapon that's good in combat and at least functional as an enhancer is present. And if we change to only "enhancer type items" being able to enhance spells, and current hybrids clamor for all the wands and orbs so they can juggle them around mid-combat, what happens to the supply for pure casters who rely on them? And really....juggling is awkward and spammy.

If certain hybrids are hamstrung, I would argue for additions and tuneups. Not reductions and removals. Let's allow for a broader range of styles, not narrow it because we might personally find it strange.

TaranGoatWalker
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Re: Seperation of melee and magic weapons.

Post by TaranGoatWalker » 28 Mar 2023 11:51

I'm yet to find a good (4/4 or higher) polearm that's a decent enhancer.
T
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Drazson
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Re: Seperation of melee and magic weapons.

Post by Drazson » 28 Mar 2023 12:10

Scythe?

Drazson
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Re: Seperation of melee and magic weapons.

Post by Drazson » 28 Mar 2023 12:18

Some kind of similar sentiment is getting to me about enhancers but I feel like what I want the resolution to be is just to REDICULOUSLY buff non-magic laymans. The gap is huge. Being a shieldbearer is mechanically a crime. I am not sure about the new berserkers, people didn't seem to be persuaded to stay in the first days I think? Pirates and Thornlin provide dodge to someone who somehow can't go into any of the ... any ... magic layman to get a shield/evade spell from that. Since nothign is touched it's obvious that caid says they are balanced, but I swear if you double (I wrote quadruple initially but I want to remain diplomatic!) the damage that specials like slam, charge, jab etc do it would be quite fine. (maybe balanced with the "quadruple" take?)

It's not a problem of us vs them, by the way. it's more that it (heavily) restricts players' options on this. Why join a guild for what compares as an emote in front of haste, shield, heal, possibly herbalism skills to make your gardener half-redundant, light spell, refresh fatigue AND MORE stuff. If this is somehow bridged then fighters might start caring less about magic enhancers and the seperation between what each uses will be more distinct.

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Taro
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Re: Seperation of melee and magic weapons.

Post by Taro » 29 Mar 2023 01:21

I think enhancers are limiting what gear is usable for hybrid players, and when hybrid players make up a vast majority of the active playerbase, that means overall gear variety is more limited than ever. I'd like to be able to use non-enhancer weapons - especially two-handed weapons, but it's impossible to justify alongside my layman guild. I'd be quite happy if enhancers were no longer required for layman spells to have any power, if it meant I wasn't limited to using an enhancing weapon (being in a fighter guild.)

I do understand the game balance concerns, and how things have been readjusted around the new magic system. However, I feel that being in a caster guild did not limit your options so much. At least for clerical guilds, I find it odd that one needs to channel one's power through an enhancer, to enact the will of the gods. :)
“There was this about vampires : they could never look scruffy. Instead, they were... what was the word... deshabille. It meant untidy, but with bags and bags of style.”

Brentan
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Re: Seperation of melee and magic weapons.

Post by Brentan » 29 Mar 2023 08:52

Don't cast spells while in combat and switch gear when you want to cast spells out of combat? Best of both worlds.

The Occ fighter doesn't use magic when they are fighting and the Occ caster doesn't swing their weapon when they are casting.

If an Occ fighter/Lay caster wants to cast good spells while in combat they are limited to moderately powerful weapons.
If an Occ caster/Lay fighter wants to swing a good weapon in combat they are limited to moderately powerful spells.

TaranGoatWalker
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Re: Seperation of melee and magic weapons.

Post by TaranGoatWalker » 29 Mar 2023 11:05

Layman magic'd still be miles better than layman fighter guilds even if they couldn't use enhancers.
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Taro
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Re: Seperation of melee and magic weapons.

Post by Taro » 29 Mar 2023 20:48

Brentan wrote:
29 Mar 2023 08:52
Don't cast spells while in combat and switch gear when you want to cast spells out of combat? Best of both worlds.

The Occ fighter doesn't use magic when they are fighting and the Occ caster doesn't swing their weapon when they are casting.

If an Occ fighter/Lay caster wants to cast good spells while in combat they are limited to moderately powerful weapons.
If an Occ caster/Lay fighter wants to swing a good weapon in combat they are limited to moderately powerful spells.
Why must we add another layer of annoyance like this? I just thinks it seems a bit silly, as a whole.
“There was this about vampires : they could never look scruffy. Instead, they were... what was the word... deshabille. It meant untidy, but with bags and bags of style.”

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Cherek
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Re: Seperation of melee and magic weapons.

Post by Cherek » 31 Mar 2023 02:46

Drazson wrote:
28 Mar 2023 12:18
Since nothing is touched it's obvious that caid says they are balanced...
I just feel I need to comment on this statement. So, we currently have tons of unfixed bugs and typo reports. By your logic, since we aren't doing anything about them, we have decided they aren't bugs and typos and everything is fine? :)

Balance, just like many other things in Genesis, will never be perfect, and there are many things we know needs fixing. There are definitely some semi-obsolete layman guilds out there, and magic/melee layman balance definitely needs a look as well. I am not saying it is necessarily super-imabalanced, but at some point someone needs to try to figure out if it is, and if so, how to fix it. We wizards also see which layman guilds players flock to and which are left empty.

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