Balance Considerations

[Cherek]

I haven't read everything (yet), but I would just like to point out that as you can see in <help race-undead> the undead stun immunity mainly works against various combat stuns, but generally not movement stuns. So, when we finally get more of those in the game, undeads won't have much of a benefit there. In case people think it'll be impossible to stop an undead player from fleeing, that's not how it will be.

Regarding combat stun immunity, my guess is that the idea thematically was that they can't breathe so they can't be stunned by DO plexus. Ironically I think DO plexus is now one of few combat stuns that actually works against undead? Not entirely sure, though. Anyway, is combat stun immunity, and the other pros of being undead, unbalanced compared to the drawbacks? Well, that's anyone's guess. There is not really any good ways to measure it. Personally I think the no-fatigue thing made the undead race a bit too good, so we adjusted that. Is it too good now? Unclear. Maybe? Maybe not? My personal guess is that our races overall are better balanced than our guilds. Perfectly balanced? No, but our races are in my opinion definitely better balanced now compared to any other time in the history of the game. Everything can always be improved, but it's not that bad as it is either.

[Silon]

My complaint with this are abilities with secondary effects or stuns that clearly do not affect breath not working on them. I understand there was a thematic reason for this, but there exists more stuns than just monks.

I don't understand how stun immunity of all things is fair when it can just ruin an entire guilds toolkit, but that's just my take.

[Cherek]

My complaint with this are abilities with secondary effects or stuns that clearly do not affect breath not working on them. I understand there was a thematic reason for this, but there exists more stuns than just monks.

I don't understand how stun immunity of all things is fair when it can just ruin an entire guilds toolkit, but that's just my take.

Like I said, I don’t know if the undead race is balanced or not. Taking a look at the undead race has been on the todo list for some time. Except the no-fatigue nerf, and the change to the Nazgûl encounter, we haven’t gotten anywhere. To be perfectly honest, the reality is that after we nerfed the no-fatigue and removed the undead benefit when battling the Nazgûl, “take a look at the undead race” went from being a high priority to being a low priority. Those two things really needed fixing as it had a very big effect on the game as a whole, and when that was done, something else got higher priority. Obviously now when vampires are involved in PVP, this discussion flares up again.

So, yes, someone should probably take a look at the undead race and try to figure out if it’s reasonably balanced or not. One option would be to use the same strategy as the racial abilities, simply make undead pros and cons smaller in general, so that even if there are imbalances it won’t be so bad either way. In my original design for racial abilities, each race had much more powerful abilities, but I eventually felt that there is just too much risk we’ll end up with a situation much like the undead race, where here will be a perceived imbalance, and where it’s i possibly to really know whether the perceived imbalance is an actual imbalance or not.

Anyway, you asked if it is fair that an ability can ruin an entire guild’s toolkit. Well, I guess it depends? I mean we have other examples of this. To play devil’s advocate, a thief can render a caster completely useless by stealing their components, and a monk or two can keep an enemy stunned forever, ruining the entire guild toolkit of the target. Is that fair? And does it have to be 100% fair at all times, or could some guilds/races simply be worse off against some other guilds/races? I mean, if I can stun 21 of 23 guilds and 7 of 8 races, that sounds pretty good compared to most guilds who doesn’t have any PVP abilities at all.

[Zestana]

Make Genesis dangerous again.

Most of the size inflation that has happened that in many ways has blown balance out of the water can be attributed to a few pivotal changes over the years.

Those of you who have joined the game in the last 5 years are spoiled. The ability to grow to such size did not exist without some insane dedication and years of dodging death. In fact there were only a handful of players that were above the 220 stat average mark when the only Premium Hunting grounds that existed were Icewall, Terel Trolls, Mithas (Only one camp instead of 3), and Qualinost.

Tilorop tried to open an Elemental Plane (A select few of you will remember that fun before it was rapidly shut down...) and then new hunting grounds did not really come around until changes were made by Lilith a decade ago to the Avenir Ogres/Dark Elves and Terel Goblins/Ribos. Some players were at the right place right time then and rapidly grew in size. It also helped create more conflict over hunting grounds. Mithas was then expanded, Cair Andros came about, the Ghastly Keep opened, the Thanar Cathedral. Suddenly there was little competition for high return XP areas.... Coupled with changes to the death penalty, and some fluctuations with the combat system with white hit changes it allowed for growth in an asymptotic way. Even though some of the changes varied for those awake the entire time some were able to rapidly make gains in very short spurts. Closing the gap and even overtaking the Supermyths of old.... (Xar was recently awake and barely makes the rankings... and he was light years ahead of the rest of the game when he retired.)

Then Movement hindering abilities were taken away because of all the changes to the global combat system. Genesis for all intents and purposes became a Carebear Mud. The wizards vested in making sure Botting wasn't happening gave up on that. I haven't heard of anyone getting a Bot Test in a very long time. 75% of the game is an automaton. Now death is very trivial and even a Supermyth can recover in less than 48 hours.

Also 90% of the players having a heal now really took away the idea behind Clerics/Ranger Class.

I've long thought differentiating between PvP deaths and PvE deaths should be a thing. With imbues PvP deaths hurt simply from losing the gear and some of the dignity taken away and maybe a 1/2 the loss of experience? PvE deaths... I think should sting a little more.

So I'll reiterate... Keep Griefers in check... but make Genesis dangerous again.

P.S. Make Shields and Two Handed weapons (besides the FBB) Viable options again
P.S.S Could someone please help the poor Rangers... Rumor has it Nerull is now GM of the Mages... which probably means they're looking at their third recode in the last 12 years. And the Rangers had it started and abandoned midway...
P.S.S.S I know no wizards that are currently on the team are paid positions... and they go where the inspiration flows... Perhaps part of the donation campaign could be used to hire a coder for a short contract stint to address some of the back back burner things... (I.E. Rangers) Just a thought.

[Cherek]

Zestana: Some quick replies below,

- I did use a bot test on someone just last week, so they still happen. I’ve sent out a bunch this year and I am not even in the AoP team. I don’t know how much the AoP team uses them, but I am pretty sure Varian told me he caught someone not that long ago.

- When it comes to hiring coders, that has been discussed many times, and while I understand why it could make sense, there are many more reasons why it doesn’t make sense, in my opinion. I wrote a lengthy reply in this thread when Makfly suggested it a while ago: viewtopic.php?t=6009&hilit=Hiring

- No, mages are very unlikely to get a third recode. However, after some of the global changes made life harder for casters, both WoHS and EC got some adjustments (maybe PoT too? Don’t remember). Mages were unfortunately kind of left to rot…. But hopefully they can get some quality of life fixes now too.

- It is true that there was most likely going to be additional stuff done for the rangers as part of their recode, but as you know the coder, Zizuph, was not allowed to remain a wizard. This is very unfortunate of course, but whenever the wizard in charge of a project disappears suddenly, for whatever reason, it tends to halt whatever they were working on. It sucks of course, but, now we’re back in a situation where we need to hope someone new volunteers.

- As for making Genesis dangerous again, that was one of the reasons for the original white hits change. It was supposed to mainly be a boost for NPCs, making grinding and boss fights harder and more dangerous. That kind of worked at first, but after some tweaks back and forth it ended up instead boosting growth, which definitely was not the intention. Then we lost Carnak in the middle of that project, and we ended up in limbo for some time. So yeah, that wasn’t good. A new eager keeper and a new eager AoB wanted to make the game dangerous again, but failed. Now, I do think the white hits change did bring a lot of good things too in the end, but the period of faster growth wasn’t good at all.

- Regarding death, we did consider different penalties for PVE and PVP, but eventually decided against it. It’s not completely off the table, though, nor is an adjustment to the recovery rate, but I would really like to see how people feel about death after we finally get the movement hindering stuff fully enabled. Fingers crossed for before Xmas.

- Yeah we went from “DPS is all you need” to “heal is a must”. Is it better or worse than before? Unclear, but it’s at least different. Perhaps a middle ground would be best. That is, tone down the need for healing a bit, while still keeping it useful. Hard to know exactly where that sweet spot is, though,

[Zestana]

Cherek,

Wonderful news on the Bot Check. It's nice to know it is still a thing.

Valid points on the hiring of a coder. The Ranger thing is really a missing piece of a puzzle spanning two decades though. Why I bring it up again. It is demoralizing to see so many new rollouts, guilds, recodes, second recodes, global changes etc. etc. and to be left virtually untouched.

Mages were unfortunately left to rot. There are some combat guilds that were also very much affected by some global changes and they've been given a bit of a stiff shoulder too. I know it all boils down to wizard interest.

The thing is is that from a players perspective so much of the new content in the last year or two has revolved around the vampires. 3 guildhalls, darkness changes, dark vision changes, a plethora of items to burn coffins, new light items to counteract darkness blobs. Changes on the fly to compensate for bugs or overlooked features etc. etc. It feels as though a very small portion of the game is being catered to in some ways and then other wizards are having to use their creative juices to come up with counters for them. Very cause and effect.

I've been around long enough and gone around with Immortals on various things over the years to not really try to poke a bear or make an argument with any of this. My activity waxes and wains... Just some observations as to major changes that have occurred over the year that have kind of brought us into this reality.. Time is a precious thing and we all give time to this place in various ways when we are capable of and I am not trying to diminish anything that's been done. But it does put into perspective my original post some inflection points over the years that have moved the game into its current form.

[Arman]

Cherek,

Wonderful news on the Bot Check. It's nice to know it is still a thing.

Valid points on the hiring of a coder. The Ranger thing is really a missing piece of a puzzle spanning two decades though. Why I bring it up again. It is demoralizing to see so many new rollouts, guilds, recodes, second recodes, global changes etc. etc. and to be left virtually untouched.

Mages were unfortunately left to rot. There are some combat guilds that were also very much affected by some global changes and they've been given a bit of a stiff shoulder too. I know it all boils down to wizard interest.

The thing is is that from a players perspective so much of the new content in the last year or two has revolved around the vampires. 3 guildhalls, darkness changes, dark vision changes, a plethora of items to burn coffins, new light items to counteract darkness blobs. Changes on the fly to compensate for bugs or overlooked features etc. etc. It feels as though a very small portion of the game is being catered to in some ways and then other wizards are having to use their creative juices to come up with counters for them. Very cause and effect.

I've been around long enough and gone around with Immortals on various things over the years to not really try to poke a bear or make an argument with any of this. My activity waxes and wains... Just some observations as to major changes that have occurred over the year that have kind of brought us into this reality.. Time is a precious thing and we all give time to this place in various ways when we are capable of and I am not trying to diminish anything that's been done. But it does put into perspective my original post some inflection points over the years that have moved the game into its current form.

You are entitled to your opinions and voice them as you like, but as one of the most prolific content creators in Genesis I find your comments way off the mark Zestana.

[Zestana]

Arman,

I'll message you directly. I re-read my last post... and I'll make a correction that perhaps is what you honed in on. There has been a lot of content released recently. Because the vampires are such a hot topic a lot of the stuff talked about ends up being centered around them. That doesn't mean that in any way I am trying to belittle the other accomplishments and content creation that's been done in the game.

Thank you wizards for your work.

Outside of that paragraph the majority of what I said I stand by, Global changes impact all guilds differently and some end up with a shorter end of the stick. It is inevitable. Such a simple thing as the new Acrobatics skill created almost an entirely new class of fighters. I enjoy discussion, even if conflicting views are involved. It is actually what moves things forward if both parties are able to be even keeled.

Cherek corrected me on the bot check. I don't use scripts so I'm not likely to ever be checked. And I think the discord is ultimately a toxic environment in many ways so I abstain from it. The difference between Wizard perspective and Player perspective has always been a thing. Two different worlds. And Mortals will always find loopholes in the code.

Yourself... Cherek... Gorboth... Cotillion, Ckrik... a few others have stood the "test of time" if you will and avoided major scandal that has often times plagued the wizard community over the years. Kudos to you all. The Game is lucky to have you, your creative input, and time.

[Arman]

No, your narrative is still off the mark, Zestana.

You talk about "changes on the fly", and then acrobatics as an example of a simple change that "created a new class of fighters".

That change was long deliberated, and involved changes and discussions that took years. The driver of the change to acrobatics was not a change on the fly. The admin realised that the game was one of fighters and mages, that we had other styles of guilds - specifically rogue and ranger - that were not viable due to a heavy reliance on defence and parry in the game, and foreign skill penalties for non-fighter guilds. They could not be competitive unless they had high defense or parry skills. The admin wanted a distinct playing experience for the rogue/ranger that was different to fighter. We wanted Genesis to provide the full fantasy thematic playing styles... so for the rogue guild style we looked at what we could do to provide a unique defensive experience that aligned to their stereotype - where they benefited from fighting with specific weapons, not being overburdened and leveraged a dodging mechanic but whose ability to do so was impacted the more weight they carried or impacted when using weapons lacking finesse.

These changes were incorporated into the core combat system and became a key element to making certain guilds - like the monks and fire knives - viable. We also had a view of making layman rogue guilds potentially more attractive (can't say that worked, but that was the intent).

These were not changes on the fly. They were deliberate, with a specific intent of expanding the thematic playing option along core guild styles that have been part of the game since day one... but have not been practical options that could compete with guilds that offer high defence and parry (fighter style guilds).

In fairness you would not be aware of all the conversations that were had around options. Of the documentation that was created and refined. Of the testing. Of the rebalancing, reskilling, and rollout into existing guilds like the monks. Of the updating of existing weapons to allow for them to be used with acrobatics. We deliberately do not provide the minutiae of our development process and progress to the players. But I would warn against assuming little thought goes into our changes because it is not shared publicly.

I appreciate your engagement as a player, and your willingness to raise things that bug you (even if from my point of view they are from a place of blissful ignorance). I do want to provide a friendly warning though... that raising issues that bug you was a path Cherek walked as a mortal, to the point where he ended up taking the red pill. And now look where the poor bugger is stuck.

[Cherek]

It’s true