Playerkilling

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Lindros

Re: Playerkilling

Post by Lindros » 08 Mar 2010 21:20

Rhynox wrote:It is because evil players are actually interested in pfighting. Very few good aligned characters are interested in pfighting (at least, from the current playerbase). And respectfully, the few good ones interested that were interested in pfighting are either people who won't get damage until all their team is vanquished (calians) or are seconds from evil pfighters.

What I think is that evil aligned guilds have the advantage of being self sufficient. An ogre alone or a RDA alone can stand his ground (and probably win a battle against) someone else. The neidars are really good tanking guilds, but I cannot expect to win a fight unless there is an important size difference, something that is not necessary with evil guilds. Right now, goodie teams are not that common so they are at an advantage.

And let's not even speak about spellcasters. Magic has virtually 100% hit rate, extremely short recovery time and does huge damage. You cannot compete against that.

Well, I disagree on the intrest part, there seems to be a few goodaligned people who are intrested in pfighting, having been attacked by 5-6 people in the last week or so, all of them being goodies, it seems you have an intrest in seing me dead if nothing else ;)

I think your thinking too highly of evil guilds, sure ogres pack a mean punch, but their tanking is not very good, not to mention their armours of choice are very limited and very restricted. From experience I would say Neidar is a better overall fighter than an ogre, and you seem to be doing plenty of damage towards ogres/goblins/orcs at least.

As for magic, I completely agree, the current system is seriously flawed. Right now spellcasters have an I-Win button, this is the scenario
we're forced to live with after the last changes to the spellcasting system(a few years back when it was made near impossible to break spellcasters concentration, end result is spellcasters have in the last couple of years grown immensly seing how they since the change
can both tank and cast nasty spells at once).


Lets hope the recoding of the magic system will change that though, magic users in my opinion should not be able to take hits from a foe and throw complicated spells, there's no logic in it.

Maizara

Re: Playerkilling

Post by Maizara » 08 Mar 2010 21:31

And there again... the lack of people and those interested in pvp with good guilds is not because of the players just not wanting to join its because of all those guilds you listed Rhynox the Leaders/Council have ruined the guilds themselves.

And I didnt mean 0 loss but a loss that what would take 2-3 levels to drop a Mortal title would take 6-8 deaths only from PvP deaths not NPC deaths.

Creed

Re: Playerkilling

Post by Creed » 08 Mar 2010 22:55

I agree with Kas.

I would love a on/off flagging for pvp.
I am no big fan of pfights, and I try to avoid it whenever I can.

I play this game to have fun with friends, and to talk to people while doing something other than being in a meaningless chatroom.
This is quite a lot more fun. And also way more time consuming.

So, I would absolutely love to have a way where I can prevent myself from attacking others, and others from attacking me.
Then I can be left alone to do what I want to, and not be dragged into a pfight, where I feel that others ruin my fun.

And I think that is key for a lot of people.
That we feel that others have the ability to ruin our fun.
And if so, there is no other options that to join boring and nondescript guilds.. or leave the game.

In most mmorpg's I will also have the option if I want to go into a pvp zone, or not.
It will be more or less like that, I guess. And I would love it.

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Mersereau
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Re: Playerkilling

Post by Mersereau » 08 Mar 2010 23:50

I've held back on this note for a very long time, mainly because I hate writing long notes. Secondly, I know either a flaming or other name calling will be following this note, but I feel it's time.

There are several intertwined problems with the game. Playerfighting becomes entangled in this.

Playerfighting used to be less of an issue -I'm talking 15 years ago at least- for these and probably other reasons. My next death, -player or otherwise- involving these factors could make me leave the game.

1.) Size of players.

The game was NEVER intended to develop players of the size they are today. Do to this, recovery takes so long, if you get killed you're going to have to spend sometimes a very long time working your way back. When things like that happen you ask yourself is it really worth wasting all this time? Of combat, general, and quest experience, combat is the biggest part of the game. It takes a very long time to acquire healthy amounts of it. 15 years ago you could die and 2-3 days later recover what you lost.

2.) Balance.

It's very, very hard to balance the game. When you die, after the stream of expletives spat at your screen, one of the next things you ask is "What could I have done differently?" If the answer is "nothing," then unless you're talking a huge size or many players versus one player being killed, there is a problem.

When items or specials or guilds, or spells, or rooms get coded into the game there is no possible way to test for ALL contingencies. It should, but it's impossible, especially with the human element involved.

Most -I said most- serial playerfighters are assholes. When their guild gets a new toy -whether it be by design or a bug- that makes their guild a little better in playerfights they just can't help but inflict themselves on their rival guilds' characters' or personal enemies.

The biggest example I ever saw of bad balance and serial playerfighters being an issue was when the Dragonarmies were coded.

(A short history lesson, it may get convoluted, it's surely biased toward my views, so please try to bear with me.)

Before the closing of Angmar's Army, probably the first really big guild war took place. Players had taken enough crap from the members of Angmar and decided enough was enough. At first there were quite a few deaths on both sides, in the end I suppose more Angmarians were slain. Then the guild closed. There was no outlet to play a chaotic evil character.

Knight's block played a huge role in this, as it was the first time on a wide range scale the special was used. Prior to the war block was used, but not on this scale. Why? If your target can't escape combat it's pretty damn easy to hack away at your target.

A few months later the Dragonarmies opened. Pretty much the same group of players from Angmar joined. They were given their own version of block in dragon fear. They were also given a way to escape combat by just flying away on a dragon -yes, I know an escape from combat was implemented prior to this, but it wasn't abused at first.

A group of players who'd just been defeated by a block had a way exact revenge with something even better. Furthermore, if things went badly they could just escape. The balance wasn't very well thought out, especially given the human element. You could trap whole teams using dragon fear. It disabled specials. One player could render multiple escape routes in a room useless, whereas Knights required one block per exit. And that was just the beginning.

Then all sorts of balance issues were encountered. Players could call dragons designed for escape which projected dragon fear and leave them in a location as long as they liked. Multiple players were able to call multiple dragons, thus stacking the dragon fear effect. Retaliation was on because they had a bigger better weapon no one policed or balanced.

In my estimation this was one of the biggest ruinous factors in the game. I left for a while. It didn't seem much fun to log on and get killed by something there was no defense for.

3.) Equipment

When you get killed by someone who always seems to be wielding an unholy crystal axe and runed falchion, who always seems to be wearing a midnight black platemail, red runed greaves, skull helmet, magical cloak of Gelan, and golden gauntlets, and the best you can find is a splendid sword, and a red plated armour. Again, it's not much fun.

The second worst decision in the history of Genesis was to limit magical items. It's not worth wasting your time and effort if someone always has what you can't have. Furthermore, at the time of this abortion of a policy the aforementioned dragonarmy was pretty much having its way with its enemies. This caused even more playerfights, because if there was only one giant black maul in the game, you'd best believe people were willing to slaughter another player over it.

Players were being attacked over runed falchions, excellent halberds and countless other limited magical items.

More players left. There wasn't much point in playing if you couldn't find anything nice to fight with and you were going to get killed by balance issues.

4.) Playerbase

The last 2 issues tremendously effected the number of players. There wasn't much point in playing anymore. I know I didn't have much desire to play given the last 2 factors.

It's easy to say "If you get killed go find 6-7 players and go hunt the bastard who killed you," but what if there are only 20 players active? Are one third of the active players really going to do this? It's a little easier when there are 50 players active, but usually that's not the case. It's hard to find help when there is none.

Why bother playing just to get killed by someone who's bigger, has unbalanced abilities, the best gear you can never get, and you can't find anyone to exact revenge?

5.) Restraint and Playability

(Another brief history, my apologies.)

For the longest time the Morgul Mages were the most feared guild on Genesis because of their player killing abilities. Pretty much if you got into a disagreement with them it was a matter of when and not if they would kill you.

They were also told they couldn't go around and use the "if it moves, hit it" philosophy. in regards to players. Many people complained about a treaty between the Mages and Rangers guilds because of roleplay. It was playability this stemmed from. If Rangers and Mages had been at war everywhere the game already would have come to halt. Much like it has now.

Then the Dragonarmies and Vampyres much later started showing lack of restraint.

Players got MUCH bigger. Limits were put on equipment. When balance issues in playerfights did get people killed it seemed as if complaints fell on deaf ears, rightly or wrongly.

There was no reason for restraint by the killing factions. There was no reason for the killed to stick around if issues weren't being addressed.

It's not much fun to login and know you're going to get killed just entering a dark room, and lighting a lamp. It's not much fun to get killed because you found the only giant black maul in the game and someone with much superior size and abilities is going to take it from you by force.

6.) Conclusion

I don't know what all this means. Maybe someone smarter than me does. It's how we got to where we are though. In my estimation its put the game on life support. Mortal egos, wizard egos and mortal-wizard egos all have gotten us where we are. An unwillingness to admit when mistakes were made on all 3 levels by many people have contributed. Not acting to repair the damage only has made things worse.

I'll never say playerfighting is bad. I think unbalanced, unrestrained playerfighting is. I used to enjoy it, now in my older days I really don't. I'll defend myself to the teeth if attacked though.

This game isn't the wild west like it was 15 years ago. It probably never will be. The game could police itself for the most part in that time. Now it can't, and many people don't care about the game, just their own personal agenda.

Mersereau

P.S. Constructive comments and discussion welcome. Those with flames, hyperbole or calling me a hypocrite can bugger off.
"Tragedy is when I cut my finger. Comedy is when you fall into an open sewer and die."
-Mel Brooks

Chanele
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Re: Playerkilling

Post by Chanele » 09 Mar 2010 00:40

Same mistakes are made today, a few lucky ones get the toys the rest has to rely on luck.
As always there are people ready to abuse theese overpowered abilities until they get fixed.

Solution?

Dont think there is one. Players always finds loop holes in code, its impossible
to test and check every angle of items/abilities/skills.

Lindros

Re: Playerkilling

Post by Lindros » 09 Mar 2010 02:01

Mers:

While its easy to point fingers and blame certain guilds, one has to remember, it takes 2 sides to start a war.
Your point of view is that Evil players are to blame, while Evil players feels the opposite.

Somewhere in between are reality most likely. Having been in most of the guilds in the game, in one form
or another, I have experienced many sides of the conflicts, and to sum it up, everyone feels they are getting
the short end of the stick and that their enemies are unbalanced.


But I agree with some of the poinst your making, limiting magic eq was a bad move in hindsight.

Player growth, people are so big that death recovery is still months of work even with the recovery system.

PvP - giving some guilds I-Win-Button is never a good option, no matter of what alignment they have.



I am not sure there's a solution to solve all the problems in the game, but I think a few things could be changed,

* leveling the PvP playing field, offer global block/pvp flag on-off option/balancing the magic system so casters dont have the I-Win-button of today

* removing or changing the magical limitations on equipment

* make pvp deaths easier to recover (maybe make it half of what a normal death is now)

* take a look at the items in the game, right now the majority of good equipment favours goodaligned chars/Mortal players, while Evil/Undead are getting
screwed over big time, try to even it out, making it 1 pro evil weapon for every pro goodie weapon and so on, if not remove all align/racial restrictions on
equipment.


I honestly think that if these 4 things were changed, it would make the game both easier to enjoy and more fun for everyone, but thats
just my opinion from my gaming. I am sure alot of people will disagree and have other things on the top of their lists.

Amberlee
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Re: Playerkilling

Post by Amberlee » 09 Mar 2010 03:46

As to comment on playerfighting.
If you see which players have been active in playerfighting.
The last few years it has been Freya, Bofur, Bombur and Lindros that has shined through.
Ironically half of those mentioned used to be Neidar back in the day.. And they did very good as playerfighters then too..
So is playerfighting about guild abilities? Yes without a doubt.
But does it also about knowing the game mechanics and how they work.. plan traps and execute them.. using your soroundings and making the best of what you got?
YES.. that counts for more.
Just look at how the mentioned players have ridiculed the SCOP in playerfights... By skill and cunning they have bested again and again a guild of superior power.
Just have to respect that even if you dont like it.
The views posted by me on this forum is not the views of the character Amberlee in-game.
If you ask for my opinion here, you will get MY opinion, not that of my character.

Rhynox
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Re: Playerkilling

Post by Rhynox » 09 Mar 2010 04:15

I always complain that the smiths need a good update, not because of a whim, but because item inflation is really bad. For example, when I joined the smiths, there were very few items able to hit the maximum appraisal level. Now it looks like every new piece of equipment created must reach it. And it used to be common for people to forge their own armours and adventure with them. Now the grinding spots are so pumped armours from smiths are pretty much useless. Even the best set I can forge can't protect against the majority of the magical weapons available. I am not saying smiths should be able to forge midnight platemails, but right now the smiths are only useful if you miss Armageddon and need a starting set for equipment hunting.

I understand the magical item limitation. Until it was capped, everyone could hit Akugla, spend 5-30 minutes killing him (depending on guild) and get the best armour and the best helm (dismissing crazy ones like the nazgul helm) in Genesis. Plus a random weapon. Repeat that six or seven times and you have just equipped yourself and your guild until the next reboot. That was wicked, fighting while both opponents wore those was pretty crazy, we may spend a pretty good amount of time until one was hurt enough to leave. It is hard to explain, but having MBP available at whim made the big ones stop caring that much about smaller pieces of equipment (dragonscales and such), thus letting those available for younger/more inactive guilds.

In the past people would wear ancient mithril chainmails, nowadays that armour cannot stop good weapons effectively. Dragonscales are pretty weak against NPCs (trolls and such). Dragon shells are so easy to get that mariners don't need to care about any other shield.

The thing with inflation in general is that it makes harder for new players to join. They still wear shirts and wield knives from the small orc camp in Sparkle, yet when a new place for newbies is open they are fully equipped with much better armours and weapons, are teamed and have their own special.

And Amberlee, I have dueled Hektor and if not for his [moderator: remove reference to specific guild ability], it would have been an easy victory. Just imagine if I were member of a guild that did more damage. Their only advantage was [moderator: remove reference to specific guild ability]. I really admire people who take their time to pfight. I have never had a connection good enough to really focus onto it, nor the will to collect potions and herbs and poisons and things like that. I love forging, though, but I don't force my fun (read: forging) into others, so why others force their fun (read: pfighting) into me?

Lindros

Re: Playerkilling

Post by Lindros » 09 Mar 2010 04:23

Rhynox wrote:I always complain that the smiths need a good update, not because of a whim, but because item inflation is really bad. For example, when I joined the smiths, there were very few items able to hit the maximum appraisal level. Now it looks like every new piece of equipment created must reach it. And it used to be common for people to forge their own armours and adventure with them. Now the grinding spots are so pumped armours from smiths are pretty much useless. Even the best set I can forge can't protect against the majority of the magical weapons available. I am not saying smiths should be able to forge midnight platemails, but right now the smiths are only useful if you miss Armageddon and need a starting set for equipment hunting.

I understand the magical item limitation. Until it was capped, everyone could hit Akugla, spend 5-30 minutes killing him (depending on guild) and get the best armour and the best helm (dismissing crazy ones like the nazgul helm) in Genesis. Plus a random weapon. Repeat that six or seven times and you have just equipped yourself and your guild until the next reboot. That was wicked, fighting while both opponents wore those was pretty crazy, we may spend a pretty good amount of time until one was hurt enough to leave. It is hard to explain, but having MBP available at whim made the big ones stop caring that much about smaller pieces of equipment (dragonscales and such), thus letting those available for younger/more inactive guilds.

In the past people would wear ancient mithril chainmails, nowadays that armour cannot stop good weapons effectively. Dragonscales are pretty weak against NPCs (trolls and such). Dragon shells are so easy to get that mariners don't need to care about any other shield.

The thing with inflation in general is that it makes harder for new players to join. They still wear shirts and wield knives from the small orc camp in Sparkle, yet when a new place for newbies is open they are fully equipped with much better armours and weapons, are teamed and have their own special.

And Amberlee, I have dueled Hektor and if not for his [moderator: remove reference to specific guild ability], it would have been an easy victory. Just imagine if I were member of a guild that did more damage. Their only advantage was [moderator: remove reference to specific guild ability]. I really admire people who take their time to pfight. I have never had a connection good enough to really focus onto it, nor the will to collect potions and herbs and poisons and things like that. I love forging, though, but I don't force my fun (read: forging) into others, so why others force their fun (read: pfighting) into me?
Actually that is not correct [moderator: remove reference to specific guild ability]. Saying that you would have beaten him had he not had [moderator: remove reference to specific guild ability], is like saying I would have beaten Xar if he didnt have [moderator: remove reference to specific guild ability]. The one issue I have with spellcasters at the moment, is that you cannot break their concentation(more or less, it used to be fairly easy and it forced magic users to bring along a tank for them to slay larger foes, but with the last changes made to spellcasting magic users could now tank 4-5 npcs and cast damage spells etc all day long).

Rhynox
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Re: Playerkilling

Post by Rhynox » 09 Mar 2010 04:35

My point was that someone doing more damage than a neidar could take Hektor down (forcing him to spend most of the time healing than attacking). I haven't fought spellcasters in a good while, but if you cannot break their concentration it is pretty bad indeed. I understand the reasons, a spellcaster would not be able to grind by himself (much like a calian), but that was one of the best changes introduced (and your only chance when fighting a mage or a priest).

While we are at it, I wonder when the wizards will finally change the mages into an occupational/layman guild, being the only spellcasting occ guild that holds one spot (and I would say being more powerful than the others).

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