Genesis Forums

Ok... I'll bite. Everyone who does not want to read a note concerning OTBs issues with Hektor/SC/casters and my response to it - skip this.

OTB said:

Hektor, I do believe you are trying to protect your god-mode.
Auto-collecting leftovers, an abundance of gems ( some even in a personal cave made for your guild ), herbs saving over armageddons collected by the use of scripts, an item that give mana while draining hitpoints ( with your mana efficient heal = endless mana as long as the components allows ), the ability to tank a whole lot better than I ever will do ( of course with the aid of spells ) and then the final touch which I actually don't see anything wrong with, ultradamage on certain opponents.

OTB - I completely respect that you think it was the point of the note. As per my intro. I was trying to give some perspective on the life of a caster vs fighter. Some hidden downsides/benefits you might say.

If I read your note correctly I think the argumentation you are trying to build then is that all the things you list make my life easier and my points therefore about the feel for all casters invalid/propaganda?

The opinion I cannot change, but to your points:

Auto-collecting leftovers - if you mean that we can do it while fighting, absolutely - but that was my point. We need to do this. But if you then assume that we then get the leftovers we specifically need without having to harvest for them on other occassions - you are wrong. We cant control the leftovers we get.

As to whether the cave system was created "for our guild" - I would say it was created to support the underlying undead theme of Calia (look to Edoral, Kroug and Chronicles) which SC was created to be a part of as counter to the undeads. Does it have a practical application for us and was it also made with that in mind - given they showed up at the same time - most likely.
An abundance of gems ( some even in a personal cave made for your guild ).
If you use gems on the level we do then - no they are not over abundant. Especially not the rare ones and in particular not if you are more casters needing the same. The rare ones I might add do not even drop in that cave system.

Herbs saving over armageddons collected by the use of scripts. Yes but the time spent (and the point was, this time is needed to spend, not whether it could be done with help from clients) gathering them is still the factor. And unlike you we cannot play for sustained amounts of time without.

An item that give mana while draining hitpoints ( with your mana efficient heal = endless mana as long as the components allows ). First off - that item is extremely rare. Just like extremely rare items can help your playing style as a fighter. You cannot use that as an argument here really. Also you try wearing it and tanking at the same time. More to it there are other nasty side effects that prevents its permanent use.

The ability to tank a whole lot better than I ever will do ( of course with the aid of spells) - why don't you try joining a defensive layman, wear 2 shields and reconsider that argument? Try pirates or templars with 2 shields... and factor in that if I am healing to tank and wearing 2 shields. How much damage do you think I do? I see smaller fighters tanking far better than me. Especially if they are using 2 shields and have a defensive layman guild (nothing wrong with that mind you)

Finally. If anything the fact that we need all these things to play, as you list them, just further supports the argument of needing micromanagement as a caster vs a fighter. Besides.. as I presented my points - they are the aspects from playing a character above the average big character. I can promise you the hardships only grow as your stats fall - they grow eksponentially.

My hypothesis is that a smaller caster experience the ressource and STAT divided by 5 rather than 3 problem to a far greater extent than the size difference would suggest. Aka. A hero caster vs a champ caster struggles in managing his playing like an adept fighter would vs a champ fighter managing his playing. But thats only a statement with very little evidence except what I have heard from small SCs and mages.

Laurel - you raise great points; allow me to respond.

Armor:
If I don't have the best possible armour I can put on my undead self, I will be ineffective for the majority of my login. Where my fighting skills are rubbish I have to stand there and get whacked at much longer per kill than melee types. So yes, I outfit myself with the best possible stuff I can get my hands on, because I have to. Let's not forget that gaining exp in this game is contingent on combat, pure and simple. I don't have a love affair with grinding per se, but there is no other way. I expect other magic types will have the same issue.

Mana regen:
I think having mana as a requirement (and therefore limitation) is reasonable. I know there are ways to regain it more quickly, but its never fast enough to accomodate constant casting, at least for an MM. Other magic guilds may have it better, I wouldn't know. In any event, you run out of components very fast though, so its not sustainable in any event.

Being fighters:
I *completely* agree that magic users should not be great fighters. I'm ok with it too - its part of the equation. However, for players to complain that magic guild X get godpower Y and therefore is unbalanced is silly. We do our killing in spurts, by kissing the rear-end of some fighter to tow us around (which is lousy RP IMHO and I will never do), or much slower than others. I can only speak for MMs (again I don't know about other casting guilds), but to suggest that even the biggest MMs run around gen blasting spells all the time is uninformed at best and I would wager that my exp gain over the course of a login is much lower than a fighter my size.

Hektor, you're bringing the discussion into a good direction that I would like to respond to when time permits.

-Cel

To Hektor, I do understand your point. It is always easier to see the negative aspects of your guild. But it is not like you consume one gem per spell
and leftovers are easily aquired doing the same I did for years, swatting flies and ants. The major way SC has been balanced is their poor solo ability, now they really need a fighter to do the damage for them when grinding. Just that the games I've played no cleric would ever stand and tank as it will increase their 'fizzle' rate and effectively kill your team.
Also I'll bite on the other part, since I'm an ogre and Templar I would be delighted to try your idea of using two shields and swinging unarmed as I do have some training in that department. Problem here is an ogre can't use shields or any of the special items in the world, be it rings, gauntlets, cloaks or whatever else people use to further their provess in combat or magic abilities.

Magic always been a hot topic in Genesis but it hasn't been a big issue as most mages have not abused their powers, personally I feel at least 95% of the magic users I've encountered have played their class really well. Can only say I would not have been in that category. Now with item limits and hoarding those who wish to aquire good items are unable to do so unless they know certain mages or are extremely lucky.

I've spoken to Hektor on other channels to explain my points... I'll elaborate on those in a different thread, but I do believe we reached what could be concurred a semi-agreement on the feeling of certain things.

Celephias, I've always respected the mages (at least up until the point one took it upon himself to break into my guild's startroom and slaughter one of my officers.. *sorry I couldn't resist*) but if you try to fool anyone in the amount of mana pool available to the mages with their mana drain spell, which I know. If you fail to cast it.. about a 1 in 20 fail rate i might add, you drain all your mana. You eat two suranie, have enough mana to cast the spell and rejuvenate it. Saying the system is running perfect with the combinations of spells available to you, which no reason to defend them, members of the guild, especially Aldinach proved just how easy it was to xp to an extreme level in no time at all, is jus bull****. You know full well, as does the rest of the game, how easy it is for a mage to abuse his powers. Just because you do not doesn't mean other players won't as has been seen in the past. If magic and clerical guilds are going to be balanced to the rest of the game, other penalties need to be introduced plain and simple. Otherwise it will be the same old same old as genesis has always been. I'm a firm believer in RP'ing to work toward more power but the majority of the game is not. Drop the elaborate pretenses, you won't catch everyone coming through that could possibly abuse the power. The entire idea of the recodes was to balance all the guilds to each other. It's crap if magic guilds are allowed to maintain their i-win button in a one on one fight, if the rest of the guids either

A: Don't have some uber ability against spellcasters... (See this used to be prevalent in the fact you could hit a spellcaster and interrupt their concentration. Now it happens very rarely. Don't try to tell me it doesn't, I play a spellcaster and know the odds on it hitting. YOU VERY RARELY FAIL. I get hit by a "The YEti cut's you" and I don't lose my concentration. That's flawed.

or B: They don't have some form of serious drawback as others. And Wow Hell really did Freeze over. OTB agreeing with me... me agreeing with Laurel, mages run around with more AC than some monks I see armourwise. That is ridiculous.

Like the saying goes..
With great power comes great responsibility.

Ilrahil wrote:I've spoken to Hektor on other channels to explain my points... I'll elaborate on those in a different thread, but I do believe we reached what could be concurred a semi-agreement on the feeling of certain things.

Celephias, I've always respected the mages (at least up until the point one took it upon himself to break into my guild's startroom and slaughter one of my officers.. *sorry I couldn't resist*) but if you try to fool anyone in the amount of mana pool available to the mages with their mana drain spell, which I know. If you fail to cast it.. about a 1 in 20 fail rate i might add, you drain all your mana. You eat two suranie, have enough mana to cast the spell and rejuvenate it. Saying the system is running perfect with the combinations of spells available to you, which no reason to defend them, members of the guild, especially Aldinach proved just how easy it was to xp to an extreme level in no time at all, is jus bull****. You know full well, as does the rest of the game, how easy it is for a mage to abuse his powers. Just because you do not doesn't mean other players won't as has been seen in the past. If magic and clerical guilds are going to be balanced to the rest of the game, other penalties need to be introduced plain and simple. Otherwise it will be the same old same old as genesis has always been. I'm a firm believer in RP'ing to work toward more power but the majority of the game is not. Drop the elaborate pretenses, you won't catch everyone coming through that could possibly abuse the power. The entire idea of the recodes was to balance all the guilds to each other. It's crap if magic guilds are allowed to maintain their i-win button in a one on one fight, if the rest of the guids either

A: Don't have some uber ability against spellcasters... (See this used to be prevalent in the fact you could hit a spellcaster and interrupt their concentration. Now it happens very rarely. Don't try to tell me it doesn't, I play a spellcaster and know the odds on it hitting. YOU VERY RARELY FAIL. I get hit by a "The YEti cut's you" and I don't lose my concentration. That's flawed.

or B: They don't have some form of serious drawback as others. And Wow Hell really did Freeze over. OTB agreeing with me... me agreeing with Laurel, mages run around with more AC than some monks I see armourwise. That is ridiculous.

In order for even someone to pull of what you describe, someone _else_, prefereably 3-4, has to herb for _you_, using _their_ time, for a long period in advance. The upkeep is enormous, and a single mage can never do this alone without falling below an average xp/hour that any melee can muster. It's simply not cost-effective.

I would have to herb for quite some hours for a _very short_ time with burst xp. The xp/hour is then is dragged down by the hours I spend in the field smelling the pretty flowers, and the net outcome is better if I just geared up and went to a grinder, do some regular killing with my not-so-imba melee skills for the same period of time.

You are sort of equally wrong as Rhynox was when he bashed the mages and their overuse of the cloud in some other thread....things don't quite work as you imagine them.

Kas:
Using one of your abilities in the middle of the camp and then fear out all trolls and finish them in one battle is not something certain mages do?
The worst part is you can solo it^^. Its just not Rhynox who knows about this.
So stop complaining

I need at least another big DA with extremely good gear (which takes days to obtain) and we need minimum one green stone to heal beetween rooms. And to top this we need to burn limbs....

Gathering herbs is just as time consuming as searching for good gear, gear is probably more time consuming actually.

I have had a caster character so I know what I am talking about.

The mana is one dimension, but not the only one. I will tell you that if I actually am using my spells, I run out of mana and fast. If I were able to blast spells with the frequency of combat specials that would be great, but I know its not reasonable. This is a limitation, one of the downsides that at least I have as a magic user.

The fact is that components, mana, limitations on when/how to cast and spell failures (I'm not talking about losing concentration for this) are all factors in the success or failure of a magic user. To posit otherwise, to suggest that there in fact no practical limitations, is incorrect.

To touch on some of your other points:

Eating two suranie isn't instant. That was changed some time ago. I would grant you that if I were able to eat a bunch suranie in one shot (like one used to be able to) I would be able to instantly regain my mana, but they need to be spaced out. During that time I'm getting pounded on so that I might be able to cast a spell (after some prep). Sounds like a bad idea. Better off running away at that point.

I would venture to say that whatever Alinach did is why the restrictions we have now exist so I'm not sure referring to him is relevant to the conversation. We can't do what he did any more.

I believe the armour issue is a difficult one due to the fact that everything in a room in Gen is equidistant from everything else. The idea of the frail mage hanging out in the back working magic doesn't work because there's no way to keep distance from your enemies. As it is, an average mage has much lousier physical stats than a fighter his size, poor defensive skills (which are understandable) and f you take away the ability to wear the best armour you can manage, and you have an easy target that gets wimpied out of the room. If there were a reasonable way to have a chance to keep away from fighters I'd have no problem with running around in a loincloth.

This conversation could be more profitable if we agreed on the base facts and the problem(s) we're trying to solve. If I understand your position from what you've written, you have two fundamental issues:

- Magic Users have the ability to unfairly generate experience and grow as compared to other players
- Magic Users have unfair advantages in PvP scenarios

Is this an accurate distillation of your issues? Once we agree on the basis for the debate, we can have it. If we can graduate this conversation from hyperbole and emotion into facts to inform clear directions forward, I think we can get somewhere.

Chanele wrote:Kas:
Using one of your abilities in the middle of the camp and then fear out all trolls and finish them in one battle is not something certain mages do?
The worst part is you can solo it^^. Its just not Rhynox who knows about this.
So stop complaining

I need at least another big DA with extremely good gear (which takes days to obtain) and we need minimum one green stone to heal beetween rooms. And to top this we need to burn limbs....

Gathering herbs is just as time consuming as searching for good gear, gear is probably more time consuming actually.

I have had a caster character so I know what I am talking about.

Rhynox made a (few?)false assumption(s), based on how mages worked in the past. Not necessarily to the tactic you questioned here though, but I'd say it's still a matter of being _cost-effective_.

You may have a caster in the game, but unless you have a high-ranked mage wielding the gifts in question(would take an average mage of no less than 1-3 years to get), you would not know the dangers and the limits using it(unless someone told you).

You probably assume that we can dump clouds everywhere and sustain ourselves with unlimited mana, killing anything in sight for tons of xp, but it's (unfortunately, but also very understandable) very false. Damn, I'd be a myth by now if I could do just a portion of that.

Celephias you ask how Aldinach performed so well? The same way mages can still do mithas, albeit you can't do it as regularly as you used to, and he went in and broke all of the weapons in the qualinost elf camp and then flame breathed through them.

My information comes from first hand basis of seeing him do it. And the elves there as well as certain other npc's around have a very high mana pool, that was easily funneled back into him, so his herb use was minimal.

My point is this. If the recodes are to work as we were told they would. With power comes great responsibility throws balance out the window. There can be perks and such specific to a guild but the power levels behind them should be reasonably balanced to melee fighting in a way. Should a spellcaster beat a melee fighter. Unless the melee fighter is extremely prepared... Yes probably 9/10 times. Should be it be a massacre like it is now? Absolutely not.