What does/should a layman signify about the character

[Rhaegar]

While I can't but agree with you there Ilrahil, I'd still love for people to take more things than raw power into consideration when joining guilds becase it can bear heavy consequences.
What would said DO/AA guy do if another DO member refused to team with him because he's a member of AA? Did he anticipate such situation when he was choosing a layman slot?

Even if you don't give a damn about RP, sooner or later you might run into someone who takes it seriously and possibly regret your choices after some awkward moments.

@ Cherek:
And you seem to get confused why DO/AA isn't that great RP-wise. It's not the problem with monks being pacifists and AA being renowned for its short temper. The problem lies in the fact that DO was hating on undead, necromancers etc. long before SCoP showed up and, as it is, AA not only houses undead members but also serves and protects them.
To me it's the same reasoning why DO won't join Necros, you support undead = you're off limits.

[Cherek]

Ilrahil: Guess its a matter of personal preference. I always liked this game better when evils were evils and goodies goodies. Now most people live in some type of grey area.

Yes, its more of a co-op game now, and less of a players versus players game. Natural perhaps, but still a bit sad.

What got me hooked in the first place was not that everyone was helping me around. What got me hooked was that the world was truly dangerous and there were alot of evil players lurking around everywhere, and nothing was really truly safe.

Now most so called evil characters are really sweet, nice, kind and helpful.

We're a smaller community? Yes, but will people actually being evil and refusing to team with someone draw people away? Who's to say. I think it might as well draw people in, or back to the game. We're all extremely helpful to newbies treating them like babies, however I think it is equally important for them to meet the truly evils characters who RP it nicely (if there are any left). Running into Ugelplect or Monika or someone else of the old scary people always made me enjoy the game just as much as getting help from the helpful people.

But as I said, thats just me. I know lots of people like the co-op game when everyone are friends and go out killing stuff without any danger whatsoever. I find it quite dull and boring myself.

So the point, well I think RP-affiliations and guilds matter still. There are plenty of options if you wanna be the "neutral" kind of character who team with everyone. There are a few guilds who by tradition, and sometimes code, oppose other guilds. So yeah, if you join the knights and what they stand for, and then you go teaming with templars or AA or anything else that goes against the whole theme of the knights as a guild, that makes the whole game less appealing to me. To me it feels like "nobody cares about RP, or guilds or anything anymore", and thats not the game I once signed up to.

I'd rather not play at all than play a game where Knights and Rangers team up with DA and Ranger to go hunt trolls.

[Cherek]

@ Cherek:
And you seem to get confused why DO/AA isn't that great RP-wise. It's not the problem with monks being pacifists and AA being renowned for its short temper. The problem lies in the fact that DO was hating on undead, necromancers etc. long before SCoP showed up and, as it is, AA not only houses undead members but also serves and protects them.
To me it's the same reasoning why DO won't join Necros, you support undead = you're off limits.

Ohh... I didnt know monks oppose undeads. But now when you mention it, it does sound familiar. Uh well then I take that back. That would obviously seem like an odd combination and one would think the ohters monks would kind of disapprove.

And that brings out the point I was making in the note above. When people start to not care anymore about what their guild stands for and everything just becomes a mix of people in different guilds just teaming up and not caring about RP or guild history or anything, then the game loses its appeal to me more and more.

[Ilrahil]

I don't think I'm that nice, sweet, kind or helpful unless I run into a newbie or an old returning player like I did with kammie the other day.

But if I'm approached by a member of a guild such as the Calians which I do not have any problems with i will not turn down the team.

The Alliance of Elnoven has not been functional since I started playing the game 8 years ago. Its a vestige and remembrance of what it used to be now in the game, and the only players who hold true to it are the ones who played when it was still strong.

Will I team with a Neidar? Hell no not as BDA general, same with the knights. Will I, because of our low numbers, respect the fact that certain members such as Creed and Earth don't like playerfighting. Yes I will, as long as they don't get caught killing on the plains (then they know they are fair game.) This isn't me being sweet or nice, its me preserving players in the game and not ruining someone elses day for shits and giggles.

I'm not saying evils should go out and team with goodies. I'm saying that in the grey areas such as monk/aa or necromancers being considered basically an undead faction, it should be left up to the players and their RP whether or not they think they should team with them or allow the combo.

The day I ever see one of my Officers/soldiers teaming with a Knight or a Neidar they can be damned well sure their ass will be out of the guild.

My point is, n evils and goodies shouldn't be in a team, but in grey areas and guilds that aren't at war but are predminately goodies with no reason to be other than former members, it becomes much more of a grey area and I think it should be left up solely to players and their RP.

[Laurel]

returning to the topic Alex launched, written from the perspective of a Ranger

options are:

Heralds
power/skill wise: in fact is the layman version of the closed (changed) Rangers of Gondor and only duplicates what Rangers do already better anyway (with the exception of 1 spell ...)
RP wise: best choice

Militia
power/skill wise: best option for a Ranger - great power without such requirements (g-exp, for example) as blademasters
RP wise: Laurel decided that being a peasant chewing twigs and protecting a single village ain't the shit for a proud Ranger

Blademasters
power/skill wise: second best option for a Ranger, best option for those who like swords
RP wise: Laurel was an Amazon blademaster for a while ... but it's Amazon of the Silent (not Gondorian) Forest after all; also - Blademaster of where? why would someone devoted to Ithilien/Gondor/ME be a master of some Khalakhor???

Bards
power/skill wise: we know ... we know ...
RP wise: this actually was the original concept of Laurel the hobbit Ranger bard ... too bad it got lost somewhere due to the limited number of times you can join minstrels (the epic of Laurel still there in the songs I guess) ... and the requirements of Genesis, that actually punish those who are in guilds that are not succesful without adding something - Rangers and SS being best examples; even the Clan was quite a laugh in the past, between they had the old shieldbash and the SB opening

Worshippers
power/skill wise: better than bards, worse than any other fighter lay
RP wise: why would a Ranger worship elements, if s/he is already a priest to the Valar ...

Pirates
power/skill wise: better than heralds and bards, worse than fighter lays and even worshippers (for Rangers at least - don't drink and drive ... errr cast)
RP wise: yeah well ... "Gimme ye loot, bastard!" errr, I meant "Begone Etanukar, foul creature of darkness!"

Monks
power/skill wise: is there any lay monk left?
RP wise: oh, a MM fighting my guards ... I better mwarn him first, that I'm gonna blind and engage him ...

Tricksters
power/skill wise: too bad they are dead in that area
RP wise: quite fitting the Ranger fighting style after all ... would they be recoded to have the old shin-kick ... well well ...

SBearers
power/skill wise: below militia, below blademasters (7links and up), above all other lay options
RP wise: Laurel was member of the Clan more than once and is quite close with them (bears the rune of friendship for many years) ... however the titles "Guard of Iron Delving" are quite a piss off ... "Ranger, close the door behind the Thane! Ye'r our doorguard after all!"; well - I rather choose to see Laurel as the ambassador of the Rangers within the Clan, than other above mentioned options

not mentioning smiths/gardeners because they are hardly usable as laymans, after being turned into crafts

what would be the best ever solution (aside from finally updating Rangers):
a. weaponmasters "insert weapon type" of "insert affiliation like in mercs" - could also add "master of 'insert weapon type and highest skill+g-exp'" (like in ogres)
or
b. hobbit combat layman placed in Shire (I did actually suggest something like that in game years ago)
or
c. recoded tricksters
or
d. recoded thieves - yes yes, if they wouldn't be Hiddukel followers but more "assasins" and would not require evil align ... but it quite won't go that way

hope the above makes sense at all ... and no Tive - you can NOT comment!

[Rhaegar]

Laurel, there is at least one layman monk (Kiara) and you don't have to 'mwarn' anyone as a layman member, they don't really follow the same restrictions as occ.

[Alexi]

Laurel, there is at least one layman monk (Kiara) and you don't have to 'mwarn' anyone as a layman member, they don't really follow the same restrictions as occ.

See this is kind of the point of my topic. "They really don't follow the same restrictiosn as occ". How can you be a follower of Segoy but totally ignore the rules of the Occupational guild you are a part of. Many of you said "AA is AA no matter what" but yet when it comes to a layman guild like the Dragon Order you're turning a blind eye to that guilds rules.

You can't say you have to follow the rules of the Army, then turn around and say a layman monk doesn't need to follow the themeatics and rules of the Dragon Order. Seems sort of skewed view.

I'm not actually attempting to argue "my" case, but just provide perhaps some perspective for others who might come to the board, and wonder "I'm a Occupational X, and Layman Y" what are the unwritten rules and guildlines someone should think about following for RP.

[Cherek]

Alexi: I am not sure what Rhaegar said is true.

Rhaegar: Doest layman monks need to follow the same rules as occupational ones? Really? Why not? And how do you know? I think that is up to the council of the monks. But maybe you are in it? I dont know all your chars.

But I think they should follow the same rules. Just as AA members should follow the same rules as occupational AA. But thats really up to the leader of the guild in my eyes. Perhaps they consider layman AA or monks or whatever as "part time" and have special rules. You tell me Alexi? How does it work in AA layman? Do you have the same rules or special ones?

But still I dont see the problem why you could not be a layman monk and still follow another occupational guild. (Except if you are an undead then I suppose). As far as I know monks doesnt have a rule that forbids pvp. You have to mwarn? Someone? Thats it? So? Problem solved? And by the way, I am pretty sure the occpuational monks and layman templar, layman AA, layman pirates, layman shieldbearer etc will protect their layman guild too? And I why should not the monks allow a shieldbearer to go protect the Neidar guild? It doesnt seem to go against Segoy to believe in the protection of a bunch of dwarves...?

All guilds for the most part allow their members to work for their layman guild, and the layman guilds also allows their members to work for the occupational guild. I dont see why that would be a problem. Except in extreme cases when layman and occpuation cleary go against eachother. Like Knight/Templar. AA/monk is borderline I suppose? MM/monk wouldnt work, but AA arent really undeads themselves... and who's to say an AA cant be against the undeads? Perhaps not officially, but you can surely have a fear or hatred for undeads even as AA RP-wise?

Personally I consider layman and OCC the same as they both follow the same beliefs of a guild.

Ilrahil: Good, the day knights and BDA team up for XP is the day I give up on this world.

[Rhaegar]

DO occ and lay follow the same rules. The only difference is that layman members don't need to 'mwarn' players before attacking them (they're not considered full monks, completely dedicated to the pacifistic life and are allowed some leeway).
At least that's how it was in the past. I really don't know how much has DO changed during the last 10 years or so but my guess would be that fundamentals remained the same while their abilities and titles changed.

[Alexi]

Alexi: I am not sure what Rhaegar said is true.

Rhaegar: Doest layman monks need to follow the same rules as occupational ones? Really? Why not? And how do you know? I think that is up to the council of the monks. But maybe you are in it? I dont know all your chars.

But I think they should follow the same rules. Just as AA members should follow the same rules as occupational AA. But thats really up to the leader of the guild in my eyes. Perhaps they consider layman AA or monks or whatever as "part time" and have special rules. You tell me Alexi? How does it work in AA layman? Do you have the same rules or special ones?

But still I dont see the problem why you could not be a layman monk and still follow another occupational guild. (Except if you are an undead then I suppose)

Personally I consider layman and OCC the same as they both follow the same beliefs of a guild.

Ilrahil: Good, the day knights and BDA team up for XP is the day I give up on this world.

Cherek this question was more concept based. How does the realm view things. Frankly as a layman angmarian (if I was muhahahah) I'd say in todays standards Roleplay isn't as important as "playing the game". The days of tried and true character roleplay progression has passed for more of just playing the game, and interaction.

There are too many people who will act one way with a group of friends they have on MSN, then if they are trying to get into X guild, or if Y person is around they'll say (Sorry but I need to act like I'm a hardcore roleplayer while Z is around) and go into their prebuild character concept until that person leaves.

If the realms view layman guilds just a branch like they truly should be of the occupational guild, they should follow the affiliations to the T. PETA isn't going to let the vegetarian in the group if he goes home and kills cats.

If everyone's view is "I'll use X Layman because it will complement my character's occupational guild the best" then we are no longer going down the road of character development on a roleplaying sense, we are attempting to get the most bang for our buck out of what is offered in the realms, or what has been recoded recently that is powerful.

There are some true roleplayers left out there, but for everyone to act like they are 100% about their character's RP, I'd have to say "Don't kid yourself".