Genesis Forums

Sure, but in that case, why would serving Takhisis would be any better than serving the Eye? Why would even neutral elementals even bother? Or do they actually take side, rendering them no longer true neutral? Allowing undead is one thing, but AA's? Thould be treated no more different than the servants of Takhisis, unless, the elements have taken side...

If I understand the Elementals correctly, they are completely Neutral. Though, you are not supposed to attack anyone else who is a member. No matter what guild they may be in. As for ScOP that is a completely different matter all together. They serve a fifth element, one who values the sanctity of life, hence why they are so against the undead. Now, if we take that into fact and just examine the gods of Evil in Krynn and Middle Earth, etc...how many of them protect the sanctity of the soul? Uh...Takhisis had Chemosh teach her how to manipulate souls so she could create Death Knights and, during the war of the souls, trick them into not going into the afterlife and walking aimlessly. Sauron infects life and alters it creating undead creatures and fiends that are a bastardization of life.

To be honest, ScOP may be Neutral, but I would be curious to know if any of their members are under holy. So, on my original point, Goodies have ScOP, but yes, I understand what you mean.

Kas wrote:Sure, but in that case, why would serving Takhisis would be any better than serving the Eye? Why would even neutral elementals even bother? Or do they actually take side, rendering them no longer true neutral? Allowing undead is one thing, but AA's? Thould be treated no more different than the servants of Takhisis, unless, the elements have taken side...

Takhisis doesent encourage undeath etc, Chemosh is the Krynnish god of the dead, Sauron is an undead "god"(ess) or undeath or so. So theres actually a quite huge difference.

I know atleast one DA thats in the Elementals, One Neidar, a merc etc, so they have everything

Well, the fifth element is one thing, opposing undeads or not. What issues an fire/water/air/earth elemental have against living, animated or death is beyond me. If their lore supports alienating particulary undeads due to past deeds, then ok, but I've been an AA/elementalist and I remember no such lore rationalizing such discrimination anywhere in their temple. Feel free to correct me though, since it's over a decade ago I was a member there.

If Psuache has been incorporated to their temple and lore, servants of that deity might do the whole aversionthing against the undead, but servants of Pyro? He didn't before and now he suddenly does?

I think we are getting confused,

At present, ScOP and the Elementals, while interconnected, are different, fundamentally.

Each Deity, or Element, has it's own personality and beliefs and it is up to the person to choose that which suits them best. Psuchae can not be chosen, as it chooses you to serve it. It is the fifth Element and is the only one which has an aversion to undead. The others do not necessarily, but obviously all of the elements care for life, they are the ones who helped to create it. Aeria gave the breath to the living, Gu formed the earth upon which all life plants its feet, etc... so yes, there is certainly adequate roleplay for any member of the Elementals, whether it be Psuchae, Pyros, or Aeria to not like the undead. However, as with all Layman guilds, there is some separation from occupation and layman. Still, I think that even though the Angmarim may serve the Eye, they are not undead. This is the seperation. While Psuchae Abhors the undead and seeks, in many cases, to destroy them, other elementals, I would say, just don't accept undead members.

On Takhisis and Chemosh...Chemosh was brought forth by Takhisis during the creation of the worlds...she also had him teach her how to manipulate souls. Chemosh is not even the God of the undead, technically, he just offers souls the opportunity to return to earth AS undead and gains power by doing so. But really, he is the god of the DEAD and oversees the passage of souls into the afterlife...kinda like Osiris, or Hades. Takhisis has just as much power to create undeads as Chemosh does, perhaps she just doesn't seek to do so as often.

Aimee

Allright- I'll bite. I mean, we haven't had much of a SCoP whinefest this year afterall, so about time someone started

For further reference - EW is the Worshipper of the Elementals layman guild and SCoP is the Spirit Circle of Psuchae occupational/caster guild.

As for SCoP and alignment. Kas and Amberlee you are both wrong/right. SCoP is goodaligned, and while not so directly anti-evil as say a knight or ranger that is their placement in the alignment spectrum. Yet at the same time they have been very neutral on many accounts.

I do not want to spoil the joining process for anyone who might be interested, so all I will say yes if you only follow the elemental alignment/morality spectrum of EW (a separate guild!) the SCoP should perhaps have been neutral. But "there's more than meets the eye!". SCoP has ties with Calia beyond just the Elemental gods, as does the EW.

As for why the SC was not created as a direct occ neutral branch of the layman guild.

There are 3 main reasons:
1. Initially the idea was a branch for each of the elements in the EW (bringing back the Walker project from 98/99). Bishop was at the time coding a occ neutral mage caster guild in Calia not connected with the gods, but only with the elements of fire/water/cleric - a Cleric one would have been redundant. That left the spirit element the only element not covered in Calia at the time.
2. Jaacar was not allowed to create a neutral occ caster, for the reasons of the evils already having 2 casters.
3. The SC and EW both has alot more background than just "follow the Gods! and their alignment" - they already did over a decade ago Kas.

Calia is one of those domains, where you do not get things spelled out for you. There is the obvious - what you can see and read directly. Then there is the underlying theme which takes some investigation.

However, Amberlee, it is true the SC has not been part of the Alliance and has tried to stay neutral in most of the conflicts the Alliance had. I will try some up some of the main reasons:

1. When your guild constantly has a declaration of war from the Mages and the Vampires (either/and) you have your hands full already
2. No fighter guilds (the Alliance) wants anyone in their midst (SCoP) who is currently fighting one of those two guilds (MM and Vamps) - understandably. It is not that the Alliance and SCoP didn't try. It simply was not meant to be
3. Therefore the SCoP has decided a more neutral and withdrawn stand - one of the great things about having a complex RP background and different philosophies to pick from.

In addendum on alignment and picking side - a few funny facts (Well they are funny to me ):
Did you know the SC and Neidar were almost at war once? It was one offence/attack from a full-scale..(SCoP is was certainly ready to leave behind their goodie & neutral stance then).
Did you know the SC was at a point allied in effect with the PoT and DA hunting evils? .. (Was SCoP being good or neutral, was the PoT/DA good / neutral or were everyone just opportunistic and selfish - evil?)

Alignment is not always about sides in Genesis and thank you for that. I like the alignment spectrum as guidelines in a fantasy setting, very much, but by my accounts it should supersede everything.

As for the Elementals and undeads. You are all wrong and Aimee is almost correct
The Worshipper layman guild was created on the code and premise of the smoldering ruins of the old Hellfire club I was told. Ever since its creation (93/94?) has it been anti-undead. Undeads cannot join and the Undeads are "not so street" by all the Elemental Gods. Nothing new there:)

It is true that it is not an active part of the Worshipper guild to be anti-undead as in hunting them and directly opposing them. I will leave it for you all to speculate why. Angmar and DA have been and are welcome into EW, regardless of their service to other Gods. I again refer to the underlying history of the guild.

With the playtest of the Firewalkers and Windwalkers (occ branches of the EW - not a separate guild like SCoP) back in 98/99, Psuchae had revealed itself around 96/97, and it is possible that the spirit walker branch was meant to be anti-undead then as well. Perhaps from a neutral aligned stance, but with the Mystics still not entirely closed at the time - the emphasis would probably not have been so strong as the SCoP. Unless Jaacar comes back - we'll never know

My dream scenario the caster and alignment spectrum?
have the Mystics come back or the Keepers of Telberin open (Holy aligned Cleric guild that was getting ready for playtest in 99/01ish) and either one of those guilds fill the slot as the active caster guild of the Alliance.
have the WoHS come back and fill the slot of the scholar mage - with room for any one alignment
have the EW and SC merge into a neutral / neutral good withdrawn Cleric guild
have the Khiraa come back and fill the slot of the utter alien evil guild
have Gorboth finish his Chemosh guild to add even more to the spice of it all

have a huge heap of new and old players fill these guilds

Just my cents on all of this...

Hektors

I was not concerned about undeads joining worshippers though, only the reason why the elementals did not like them. My main concern was about non-undeads regardless of what deity they worshipped/served could join or not, in this case Da and AA. If there is no issues there, then fine fine.

This elemental aversion versus the undead, is this described clearly in the open library? I do have a copy of the decade old library from when I was a member, and without checking it(no time now, I will get back to it) I belive it says any race and alignment is free to join plus some additional rules not including anything about the undead.

I'll come back to it.

I find it difficult to substantiate the claim about elementals being anti-undead(except for Psuache). First, they bid undeads welcome to their temple, then accordingly to their open library which also undeads can read, nothing within condemns them either in any way or shape. Furthermore, the rules of joining is pretty clear and remains the same as over a decade ago and still don't exclude undeads.

Technically, unless there are hardcoded to stop undeads in their tracks entering the laymanslot upon a joining ceremony, they actually _can_ join the guild.

What their members enforce on the guild politically is a whole different matter though as probably anyone can in theory highjack a guild and bestow additional rules upon it.

If we are talking about what is coded into a guild and what is acceptable by roleplay, then we are talking two different things.

Code is completely seperate from what makes sense and what is within the RP of a guild. As High Clerist, I could go and kill all kinds of good aligned people. Heck, Calof has a sweet Shield I would love to have and Trident from Atlas is super nice too, I could easily go kill them without repercussions from things hard coded within the guild. Same goes for Calian, or Neidar, etc...

This does not mean I am going to do it. Roleplay, following the Oath and Measure, things like that which require thought stop me from doing so. Elementals may be able to allow Undead to join because nothing within it is hardcoded against it...but does it really fit their roleplay? Are you telling me that the deities that all worked together to create life and a means of sustaining life would be totally ok with those who corrupt what they created? Undead are a bastardization of what the Elementals created.

I do not think that it has anything to do with a person "hijacking" a guild but more to do with what fits the roleplay of the elementals. A Knight, could, legitemately join the Necromancers should the conclave allow it. Aimee was at one point a Bloodguard as High Warrior. Does this mean it was accepted by the other Knights? No, but neither was it hardcoded that she couldn't.

Aimee

For all I know the code allows such perfect creations as:
MM/Knight of Takhisis
Ranger/Minotaur
Neidar/AA
Monk/Necro

and plenty more, which are both funny and stupid at once.

Doesn't seem like there's many of those running around tho, just because the code allows it. I'm quite with Aimee on this one - the added layer of RP, that can be stretched by players themselves is quite important.

For all I know, SU doesn't like sneaky bastards. On the other hand, I was explained once, that for SU in Zaren sphere it would be acceptable to become thieves if that would help them with their duties.
Same for a certain kind of Rangers - it would be (stupidly, but still) RP-possible for them to become pirates, just to pretend they are not Rangers (deception).

Most stupid creations I met was MM/tricksters (yeah, the RP ...).