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I was not trying to be rude, I was pointing out the regressive game design. Apologies if the language I used seems harsh. It just seems terrible in every way. An unreadable map is worse than no map at all. If the map was made to hide treasure than it already did that. We already have maps that don't show what room you are in until you are standing inside of that room. If it was made to hide non-obvious exits than I ask, are the exits the old map was showing discover able without spamming various directions?

Every sound is muffled by the thick white mist that covers everything on the ground. Slim streaks of sunlight pierce into the mist, causing it to glow with a pale ghostly light, a stark contrast to the black trunks of the trees that reach up through the mist to join the darkness of the forest canopy above. A small walkpath continues in a southeast-northeast direction.
>
exa walkpath
It continues in a southeast-northeast direction.
>
exa floor
You find no floor.
>
exa trees
Like silent black giants, the trees around you reach up through the white mist, clawing for the darkness of the forest canopy about ten meters above. Here and there a few strands of sunlight reach through the dark tree canopy to pierce into the ghostly white mist. Similar to pine trees, they all have black stems and broad cones. Out of the white mist a huge black stump has appeared a few meters from you. It towers above you like a 8 meter tall giant.
>
exa darkness
You find no darkness.
>
search trees
You start to search trees.
>
Your search reveals nothing special.
s
Slim streaks of sunlight shimmer down through the forest canopy above, piercing into the thick silent mist that covers everything on the ground. Rising up through the ghostly glare of the mist, black trees reach for the near total darkness of the forest canopy some ten meters above you.

Here we have a non obvious south exit. I could not find any way to discern was there. Examining and searching the mist and the stump, climbing the stump, nothing reveals the exits the old map used to show. Now maybe I'm stupid and just can't find the exit if it bit me on the nose. Or maybe the information given in the game about these "hidden" exits is not adequate enough. The forest itself is a problem, the old map put a band-aid on this problem. The new map makes it worse, the forest itself is a jumbled, confusing mess of non-obvious exits.

When I said it was terrible game design I meant the forest and the map. Both are bad. I am not trying to say that Chevrotain's work sucks or that he is a bad wizard. I just wish he and those who approved the new map had put a little more thought into game design and how much the magic map means to players. It is a big reason a lot of players keep playing the game after first making a character. A lot of MUDs I tried before Genesis didn't have a good map system and we do. It was a turn off to the other games and a reason I kept playing this one. The map matters, the smallest amount of visuals in this text based game help draw in players. ASCII Maps are cool, that's fine. It's a visual you can use to draw in players. But please put a little more thought into what the maps mean.

Maybe this doesn't matter and I'm just being an ass. That's possible. I just feel strongly about the importance of good accurate maps. It can make or break the gameplay experience entirely.

We are happy to listen to feedback Ody, but the way you presented it is was not good. We're all playing this game together, if you are unhappy with something it's fine to mention it, but the way you (and some others in this thread) provided your feedback is not the best way to provide feedback. So, the next time you feel we have done something wrong, take a deep breath and please consider if you are following this very simple forum rule before you post:

"Use common sense and be respectful towards each other at all times, even when disagreeing."

Your first post in this thread broke this rule I think, and has been removed. I do appreciate that you apologized, but in the future, please stick to the rules, or post in the flames section, that's why we have it.

Ody: Based on what you posted earlier, it looks to me that you have not figured out how to navigate the forest, and it sounds like you believe it is either poorly designed or broken. It is neither. It is for you to figure out how to navigate the forest, and it is very clear to me that there is something you have not thought about. I know how it is coded and designed, I have tested it to check that it works like intended, and it does. I also think the design is perfectly fine.

As for the map, yes, we have understood that many are unhappy with the new silent forest map. Yes, we are going to try to improve it. So, let's talk about how to make it better. I do understand that many got used to the old map, and this feels like a big downgrade, but I think the wizard who made the previous map (and ohterwise did a great job with Calia) did not consider how this particular area was coded.´when he or she added the previous map.

Because, if you you are honest with yourself, do you truly think a map for an area with no obvious exits, secret ways to find the exits, and dark rooms, should have a map with all rooms and exits clearly showing immediately when you enter the area? Do you truly think an area where a wizard spent a lot of time and effort into making it mysterious, with secrets waiting to be revealed by a clever player, should have a map that just shows those secrets right away?

If we want to make the area easier then we should remake the area, remove the secrets, and add obvious exits. Then we can put the old map back if you want. Personally, I think that would be a sad thing to do as the wizard who made it clearly made it this way, and put in some nice rewards for players who explored and learned how to navigate.

I agree that the magic map is supposed to make the game easier, and it is a big selling point for our game overall (which is why so many wizards have put in a lot of effort into making maps), but openly showing every room and every exit on the map, even when it makes no sense to do so based on how the area is written, I do not think improves the game experience at all. The game must be allowed to contain secrets, and discovering these secrets should be a reward for players who like to discover things and manage to figure it out. THAT is a reward in itself. Maybe not all players like solving mysteries, and want everything to be clear and obvious, I get that, but the majority of our areas HAVE obvious exits, and the map shows everything for you. I think we definitely have room in the game to let some small areas keep their secrets - as they were coded.

Also, the old map was not in line with how most similar non-obvious exit areas in the game are presented on the map. We are not reverting back to that one, but we ARE listening to your feedback about the current map. So, what would be a good middle ground here, that would make the map better, but still respect the creator of the area's vision of the place. It is an area that is supposed to be hard to navigate before you find out how to discover the exits (yes, there is a way). How would we make a map that reflects that in a good way, according to you?

I'm a big fan of the magic map. I really appreciated the new maps added in Avenir.

I am not too familiar with this map being discussed, but wonder if anyone has considered some method that toggles a different magic map? Perhaps once a person has successfully explored an area and found all the rooms it unlocks a better map? A mini quest for a better map.

This is an excellent idea. Likely solves all the issues. And gets people to actively explore all the nooks and crannies. Those that like to quest, get a small bonus.

Indeed, that is excellent. Very cool!

Tarlok: Another good idea, and actually, Chevrotain already started to look into something along those lines a few days ago. It is, unfortunately, nothing that is supported by our mapping system today, but perhaps it is something that could be implemented in the future.

Cherek wrote: ↑

16 Feb 2020 00:38

Tarlok: Another good idea, and actually, Chevrotain already started to look into something along those lines a few days ago. It is, unfortunately, nothing that is supported by our mapping system today, but perhaps it is something that could be implemented in the future.

There is code filtering what you see on the magic map, regarding darkness. Maybe that's usable.

Demons gate has an "area exploration" stat.
I think it also gives out tiny amounts of xp for when you visit a new room first time.

Tarlok wrote: ↑

15 Feb 2020 19:09

I'm a big fan of the magic map. I really appreciated the new maps added in Avenir.

I am not too familiar with this map being discussed, but wonder if anyone has considered some method that toggles a different magic map? Perhaps once a person has successfully explored an area and found all the rooms it unlocks a better map? A mini quest for a better map.

A fantastic idea, and one that should be implemented to every single mapped area. An explorer who goes into an area for the first place shouldn't know the area like the palm of his hand. The mini map should ideally work like the lfind feature which only permits searching for a herb after successfully finding it.