Genesis Forums

One of the greatest things about Genesis is the imagination it inspires in all of us.

We bring concepts and ideas from all corners of the fantasy worlds, and mash them all together in the fun and quirky place we all love. We don't have to be anything we don't want to be, and it lets us feel that we can be anything we want.

But, well, that's not always the way it works. At least, not in the ways we want it to work.

I shall refer everyone to the rights all players enjoy on Genesis, particularly the second paragraph:

This is the bill of players' rights:

PARAGRAPH 1
Every player has the right to be a frog.

PARAGRAPH 2
Should the system the player is on fail to implement the "being frog"
functionality, the player has a right to pretend he is a frog.

PARAGRAPH 3
If a player does not exercise his right to be a frog, or to pretend to be one,
other players have a right to pretend he is a frog.

PARAGRAPH 4
If the player feels uncomfortable with the epithet "he", he may substitute
it with a word of his choice in the entire bill of rights.

Of course, we can substitute 'frog' for being a death knight or lich. Just because there is no functionality on the system for any player to be a Death Knight or a Lich, it doesn't mean that the player has to role-play themselves that way. Everyone should feel free to role-play themselves in any manner they please (so long as it falls within the rules, especially as they apply to harassment). But, sometimes we want functionality instead, and that's not always going to be there (to our disappointment)

With respect to Nils, your statement that "Nerull has volunteered to do the work" feels... a little strange. Why doesn't Nerull speak for himself? Why do you feel a need to offer up what you believe he has promised you? From a personal perspective, I have been asked by Nerull to do some guild related work for him (which I am well suited to) and he has promised to do some for me when he has time.

Neither of which has anything to do with the Khiraa.

If you want to see the Khiraa rise again, that's cool. Some people liked the guild (I found it hokey myself, but everyone is different and are welcome and encouraged to like anything they please). Make a petition if you want, that's cool too. But I would agree with the sentiment that there is tons of other guildwork with far higher priority than resurrecting and adding yet another occ guild. To make it worthwhile, it would really need to make an impact by permanently adding several new active players (not new characters from existing players) to the mud. I'm nowhere near convinced it would do that, I think it would further dilute our current playerbase by spreading them into yet another guild.

Speaking from experience, it is hard enough trying to keep up with fixing the bugs and problems in all of these guilds with a very limited pool of wizards to begin with. How many guilds actually have active, proper guildmaster wizards? So who does the work? Well, people who have other things they are trying to volunteer their time for.

As a wizard, I wouldn't want anyone speaking on my behalf, offering promises to the public. Quite frankly, I am surprised that Nerull is cool with having other people make promises on his behalf and speaking in public for him.

Which is not an accusation that Nils is lying. It is entirely possible that Nerull is totally on board and has offered to recode the Khiraa. But the first thing I did when I read that, was scroll through to see Nerull's response or post of support and agreement with Nils. I didn't see it yet however. That kinda makes me feel a little uncomfortable about the whole thread as a result.

Just my take on things here, and I have seen enough craziness in the 28 years or so I've been on Genesis.

Varian

I was going to wait with my reply, but Varian just demonstrated what happens when you don't pay attention in class (I might be guilty of this myself, so bear with me).

I present to you, exhibit A, the link to the thread on which it happened:
viewtopic.php?f=35&t=3740

Exhibit B, a screenshot of his own words: Note to self: always supply documentation, even though it's accessible on the very forum the post was left on.

Now, go on discussing. I can't wait for someone starting to accuse me of looking out for myself first, and the game second! It'll be a riot!

So basically: Nerull offered to do it, saying it all depends on the administrative, asking the question "do we need more OCC guilds?" Subsequently the administration said "No, we don't (supported by some sad data)".

I don't know, that feels like pretty much it, no?

I didn't mind the Khiraa, and i'd love to see some sort of guilds linked to the dark horror domain of Raumdor.

But the Khiraa of old won't be coming back. Cherek has outlined a lot of the core reasons. The others are that:

* the 'lich' thematics overlaps too closely with what Gorboth's necromancers will ultimately be
* I am not a fan of the guilds that combine occupational and layman (even though I have coded them and approved a few). I actually like the mix and matching of guilds. I am really reluctant to consider combining guilds, particularly for the sole purpose of pooling combat aid benefits, unless there is a really strong reasoning for it that can sway me.

So at this point a straight port wouldn't be approved. Could the Khiraa come back in some other way that allowed players to experience some of the nostalgia they miss? Sure. It would need to be an agreeable concept that falls within the sort of guilds we want to introduce into the game (as outline by Cherek). But still possible. And it would need to be something that Nerull and his domain wizards would want to do outside of their other projects.

nils wrote: ↑

09 Jan 2021 04:42

I was going to wait with my reply, but Varian just demonstrated what happens when you don't pay attention in class (I might be guilty of this myself, so bear with me).

I present to you, exhibit A, the link to the thread on which it happened:
viewtopic.php?f=35&t=3740

Exhibit B, a screenshot of his own words: khiraa.JPG

Note to self: always supply documentation, even though it's accessible on the very forum the post was left on.

Now, go on discussing. I can't wait for someone starting to accuse me of looking out for myself first, and the game second! It'll be a riot!

Nothing in your quote shows Nerull OFFERING (your word) to do it... he starts off by saying it is hypothetically doable and goes on to clarify that there are a bunch of evaluations that need to be made. He didn't offer to do it in the documentation you are quoting, he said he had the technical ability to do something like that. Yes, he includes admin input amongst his reasoning, but he also includes what appear to be his own doubts about adding another occ guild.Again, maybe he clarified this to you elsewhere and actually made a direct offer.

So I will ask again, just who do you think you are to put words in Nerull's mouth?

I'm not saying you are lying. But there is a world of difference between saying something is possible to do and offering/supporting the doing of it. So please provide the documentation that shows Nerull is fully on board, or perhaps offer him an apology for potentially misunderstanding his words and in the future just let him speak for himself.

Just a suggestion.

Also, try to avoid making a blanket statement that others aren't paying attention unless you are 100% certain. Just because you interpret someone else's words one way, it doesn't mean that it is the ONLY way to interpret those words. And it doesn't mean that everyone else who doesn't share your interpretation is therefore wrong. That's why I prefer to let people speak for themselves.

A clarification: I would do it, due to slight bias and nostalgia (I was around when Khiraa was a faction that ran around, adding depth to the game as an independent operator), plus to maybe make Raumdor a bit more complete. Raumdor's theme revolves around that cult.

But Arman probably has the right angle here - maybe Khiraa of Old should stay in their coffins, and rather resurrect for example just a new DK branch in a refurbished Khiraa temple, occ only. Could be a fine 4th "evil" melee flavour (DA, AA, FK and DK?) vs Rangers, Knights, Neidars, Calians, Kenders and Archers.

Granted, I probably would say 'yes' to a lot of guild ideas as I'm a hopeless optimist and see solutions to everything. Important to take into consideration what Cherek et al said, and at the same time, I am in the middle of developing Vampires.

I totally get that both players and wizards want new cool content, or bring back old stuff we liked, I get it. On a personal level, I think a new Khiraa (perhaps not an exact copy of the old one, but a new order born from the old one) is a cool idea. Mystics are often brought up as a guild to resurrect too. Sure, that's a fun thought. There has also been a lot of other cool ideas for guilds, ranging from druids who can turn into animals, draconians, dragonkin (still love that idea), poison makers, thief occupational, etc, etc. We could make ten more occupational guilds, all with cool abilities and a unique theme. But... more isn't always better.

While I hate to be the one to say "no", it is after all my job to try to look at the big picture and say no when needed. I strongly believe this is one of those cases. I again urge both wizards and players to think about non-occupational guilds when you think about cool guilds you want to make, or would like to see in the game. I'd be thrilled if someone came to me asking me to approve a really cool layman guild. To be honest, we've been quite creative when it comes to occupational guilds, but we haven't been as creative when it comes to our other guild types. Why is there no anti-angic layman guild? Or a PVP-specialist layman guild? A potion-maker craft guild? Or merchants? There is so much we can do to continue providing players with more options and guild combinations, and at the same time NOT make the issue with empty occupational guilds, inactive leadership, etc worse.

When we create a new occupational guild, it is often the same story. People flock to it to try it out, which boosts the popularity of the new guild a lot, meaning some older guilds lose players, or become completly dormant. Player numbers tend to spike for some weeks / months too, but after a while, things settle, old players who only came back to try the new guild remember they actually didn't have time/motivation to truly play, people who joined with their alts start plating their mains again, and some of those who joined with their mains realize the new guild wasn't for them. Relatively soon the new guild enter the same cycle as the old guilds.

That cycle tend to look something like this:

When a strong active leader (or leaders) emerges, they recruit new members, the guild becomes active and it's a lot of fun. For a while. Then things slow down, people in leading positions leave the guild, take a break from Genesis, recruitment stops, players leave for other options, and the guild goes dormant. Instead, another guild enjoys a surge of members and activity, because a leader has emerged there. If the number of total players in the game stay the same, it will take longer and longer between these "activity boosts", for each new guild we add. Roughly estimated, I'd say for every really active guild we have, there are at least two that are very low on members, have completely inactive leaders, or is just more or less dormant in general.

One of the big challenges in the game right now is to turn this around. I really do think active guilds is very important for the long term success of Genesis. I don't think Genesis should be a solo game, it should be a game where you often meet and socialize with other people. Where guild cooperation and conflict is also a key part of the game - not only individual progress and leveling. Obviously, the number of occupational guilds is not the _only_ challenge improve that part of the game, but it's one of them. I think a good first step is to pull on the brakes when it comes to creating new ones. At least for a while.

Cherek wrote: ↑

09 Jan 2021 18:02

To be honest, we've been quite creative when it comes to occupational guilds..

A new run of the mill with Vampires is being creative?

Cherek wrote: ↑

09 Jan 2021 18:02

When we create a new occupational guild, it is often the same story.

We've seen it quite recently. A new, strong guild emerges and utterly failed. I don't know why, but what could be a new, cool guild is largely considered a flop by most all available metrics.

Why would Khiraa be any different? Because it has not only a base in long-existing lore but dedicated fans who would work hard to make it a success. I'm all for new, cool guilds, but (and I know you will correct me if I am wrong) guilds that come out lately without the fanfare or consultation of the masses seem to be met with lackluster results.

Thalric wrote: ↑

10 Jan 2021 00:00

Cherek wrote: ↑

09 Jan 2021 18:02

To be honest, we've been quite creative when it comes to occupational guilds..

A new run of the mill with Vampires is being creative?

If you count all the current 22 options, yes I think we've been quite creative. There are a lot of unique concepts to choose from. As for Nerull's in-progress vampire guild, maybe you should wait to try it out until you deem it uncreative!