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Playing the game does help a lot in giving knowledge about how things really are. But you still won't get the full picture. And there's that thing about becoming biased that you will definitely be accused of no matter what you do. But there is another thin g that is a very good complement to these "clean test environments": SNOOP!
By snooping mortals you can see which areas are most popular and why. Which herbs are most used, how, and why. What combinations of people work together and how do they complement each other. What features (bugs) are being most heavily abused etc.
It's also a fun way of passing time.

The same goes for logging things. Which creatures are killed most often - perhaps they should be given some special to make them harder? Which items are everyone using - are the npc:s carying them too easy, or are the items too good? Which pc:s are getting xp fastest - is it due to skill, hard work, easy opponents or their merc being too powerful? Which mercs are people joining? Why? Which ones are people avoiding? Why? Etc.

I know people value their privacy, so if you want to be nice, just send a mail to all highbies asking if they're ok with being snooped now and then, to help make the game better and more balanced... And then snoop the ones who say no - they obviously have something to hide ;-]
I'm probably pretty useless to snoop myself, not playing the game the "normal" way. And reporting bugs/oddities I find. But you're welcome to snoop me anytime anywhere.

As for immortals playing, I hope and assume it's allowed. But I understand the problematics. Though perhaps for some immortals it would work well.
Do any immortals play the game as mortals? Maybe none of my business, but I'm asking anyway, because I'm nosey.

I hate the snoop function though. Its led to many things that have been in the game for 10+ years to be changed/removed/drastically altered.

Yes some of the things need to be changed. But for those players who use them they can result in nasty consequences when changed due to the fact there is no notice of it being done and you find yourself in a tight pickle. It also is frustrating to see things you repeatedly use and have used changed, and then a week later something else changed and so on. Especially tools used to fight off certain guilds.

Yes. Most people hate it when some neat feature they've (ab)used for years gets fixed. But if it gets fixed, it's probably because it is bugged, or used in a way the creator never intended it. If someone had been snooping people, those things might have been fixed ten years ago and you wouldn't have gotten so used to them.
The one thing I do agree with you on, however, is that it's nice to have a notice when something of importance is changed, so you don't have to die while finding it out.

I personally could care less if they want to play mortals or not, theres already enough corruption in this game that I dont think it would make too much of a difference as it is.

That being said, just how thorough is this testing for guilds? Is there another Genesis where wizards can have free reign with new characters and test everything from items effects, specials, DPS, tanking abilities, dodging, magical resistance, magical damage, magical consumption compared to other guilds? Or is it just take a few popular NPC's and throw them in a room 1v1 and see how well they do? Are you testing against multiple mobs?

What EQ is used for each character? What stats are used and do you test any other stat combinations? Do two wizards test guilds by combating them against each guild? Are all layman combo's being used? Do you test the effects when teamed with certain guilds? Are herbs and restorative potions/enhancing potions being used? Have you thought of bringing exceptional PvPers in as testers and letting them have at each other, sometimes the best views on a situation are from outside sources.

And I can think of many more things that could be tested before I would even consider putting a guild recode or new guild live. The Ogres flourished because 90% of all items in game they cannot use and their items could be easily tested, AA failed because they were not tested properly with everything thus making them really over powered in the beginning and instead of going back to the drawing board they were completely nerfed and now useless except for the layman option. Necromancers, same deal. Not to mention this is just the physical aspect of guilds I hardly think much thought is put into the political aspect either, AA for some god awful reason layman members have the option to hold power over a full member. Knights before the change had no real option to get rid of the Grandmaster, PoT have had an awful leader for the past decade and no one can change that other then the wizards who do not wish to step in other then speaking with Diri who abides by the rules for a bit then goes right back to what shes done for the past decade.

There are alot of variables and while I dont want to point the finger and say that things truly arent being tested I know for a fact that there are sometimes I will mention an item to a wizard and the response I get is "Whats that do?" followed by "Really theres something like that in game?". Common knowledge between players and wizards is quite different, point being the moss. 80% of all players knew what it did and 40% of those knew how it could be used, wizards obviously didnt or the change would have been years ago or maybe they just didnt care till it was brought out into the light.

If I was willing to share my nerdiness with my friends at college... I'd facebook like your post again and again Greneth.

Draugor wrote:Gorb, imo its a really good idea since it seems that some wizards have lost the game completely and/or are missreading alot of the code, you should get one of the AoB to try out some of the guilds that you have "balanced" so to spear from a players point of view. Try them from nothing and try getting gear etc, some guilds have become alot better (bda, knights, Neidar and calians for instance) However AA are close to worthless, neidar for instance can take ALOT more damage and despite what people believe they do hurt, I fought Logg the other day, you cant put a dent in him and he will mess you up. But you all claim its balanced etc when balance is so far off due to you all having tested everything in "controlled" enviroments.

And alot of guilds seem to have gotten a MUCH bigger upgrade than others, the only way to really test stuff is to actually try them out, looking in the file and say that stuff works properly aint balancing -.- Testing stuff and then tweaking is.

I'm a big believer in making things that people want rather than trying to sell them what we make. So if people feel AA are worthless and no one wants to play it, I have no problems shutting the guild down so no one needs to suffer through it. I have spent hours playing with AA skills and abilities with various sets of equipment. These aren't just random tests that are run, they are against known popular npcs and against other guilds with similar guild stat, skills, stats, etc. When all else is equal, AA stands above the rest in certain situations (their strength areas) while other guilds are better in their respective strengths. I've said this before, but beating someone involves using your strengths against someone's weaknesses. Not pitting your weaknesses against someone else's strengths. Find out what your strengths are, and use them.

On the note that wizards are out of touch - I will fully admit that I'm out of touch with the player community in what is popular to do, to kill, to explore, to exploit, all the various items coded throughout the years, etc. However, when it comes down to the balance numbers for these abilities - they are rock solid. The recoded specials are mathematically solid, with not much interpretation of the results. Underneath the covers, one special is doing exactly the same as another special with just the combat aid numbers to differentiate them.

petros wrote:

Draugor wrote:Gorb, imo its a really good idea since it seems that some wizards have lost the game completely and/or are missreading alot of the code, you should get one of the AoB to try out some of the guilds that you have "balanced" so to spear from a players point of view. Try them from nothing and try getting gear etc, some guilds have become alot better (bda, knights, Neidar and calians for instance) However AA are close to worthless, neidar for instance can take ALOT more damage and despite what people believe they do hurt, I fought Logg the other day, you cant put a dent in him and he will mess you up. But you all claim its balanced etc when balance is so far off due to you all having tested everything in "controlled" enviroments.

And alot of guilds seem to have gotten a MUCH bigger upgrade than others, the only way to really test stuff is to actually try them out, looking in the file and say that stuff works properly aint balancing -.- Testing stuff and then tweaking is.

I'm a big believer in making things that people want rather than trying to sell them what we make. So if people feel AA are worthless and no one wants to play it, I have no problems shutting the guild down so no one needs to suffer through it. I have spent hours playing with AA skills and abilities with various sets of equipment. These aren't just random tests that are run, they are against known popular npcs and against other guilds with similar guild stat, skills, stats, etc. When all else is equal, AA stands above the rest in certain situations (their strength areas) while other guilds are better in their respective strengths. I've said this before, but beating someone involves using your strengths against someone's weaknesses. Not pitting your weaknesses against someone else's strengths. Find out what your strengths are, and use them.

On the note that wizards are out of touch - I will fully admit that I'm out of touch with the player community in what is popular to do, to kill, to explore, to exploit, all the various items coded throughout the years, etc. However, when it comes down to the balance numbers for these abilities - they are rock solid. The recoded specials are mathematically solid, with not much interpretation of the results. Underneath the covers, one special is doing exactly the same as another special with just the combat aid numbers to differentiate them.

And no offense we are grateful for the time you put in but herein lies the problem and you pretty much stated it.

You are determined that mathematically etc. the tests you run prove that balance, even when countless players argue otherwise. I'm not saying you are wrong, but perhaps the players are not just making it up and a guild really is underpowered that has been put through the balance etc. Wizards ask players to cooperate with them and for the most part we do, but I feel the cooperation is a two way street and for certain topics that have been beaten into the ground over the last two years or so there is no cooperation from the players views/points to the wizards. Yes a case of this is AA where you have run the numbers, pitted them against popular NPC's, but since its impossible to test everything and people still complain about the guild why not look into it even closer.

Ilrahil wrote: Yes a case of this is AA where you have run the numbers, pitted them against popular NPC's, but since its impossible to test everything and people still complain about the guild why not look into it even closer.

Yes, every time this comes up, I look into it and test out the cases that I'm told. I am not against looking into things closer. I do make mistakes, but for AA, there is no mistake so far that I haven't corrected.

petros wrote:

Ilrahil wrote: Yes a case of this is AA where you have run the numbers, pitted them against popular NPC's, but since its impossible to test everything and people still complain about the guild why not look into it even closer.

Yes, every time this comes up, I look into it and test out the cases that I'm told. I am not against looking into things closer. I do make mistakes, but for AA, there is no mistake so far that I haven't corrected.

I dont doubt your hard work for a second, nor I am questioning your methods on how to tackle guilds. Thats not the point of my posts. My question is and you said it yourself, being out of touch with how players do things can you honestly say that you have tested against all major variables? And what do you define as a strength? Because what you may see as a strength we as players have ways to counter it and feel its more of a weakness.

I guess what I should be asking that may put everyone more at ease is, can you give some examples of what exactly was tested? And what exactly did you use and against what to base your statistics off of? And was it a one time test, multiple tests?

Greneth wrote:Necromancers, same deal.

Nono, I was told Yesterday that Necromancers where OCC powerfull by someone whom have never even set foot close to the guild Sure they where OCC with the drain thingie, but now? 3 spells that are worth piss, and one of them aint even worth piss imo. BUUUT! It looks good in code so What do the people who actually use the stuff know?