Genesis Forums

amberlee wrote:Realistically now... even three or maybe four heroes cant even beat a myth :p

Is there such huge difference between a legend and a myth? Because I remember that it's quite possible to take down legend with two rising heroes (and none of them being necromancer!) in a fair fight (ie: no herbs, just standing there and lashing out at each other etc.).

Freya wrote:[...]join the best pfighting melee guild out there(read knights)and go on pkill rampage?[...]

And you flame Rhynox for whining?

Rhaegar wrote:

amberlee wrote:Realistically now... even three or maybe four heroes cant even beat a myth :p

Is there such huge difference between a legend and a myth? Because I remember that it's quite possible to take down legend with two rising heroes (and none of them being necromancer!) in a fair fight (ie: no herbs, just standing there and lashing out at each other etc.).

Then you remember pretty wrong
And yes the difference between legend and myth is fairly big

amberlee wrote:

Rhaegar wrote:

amberlee wrote:Realistically now... even three or maybe four heroes cant even beat a myth :p

Is there such huge difference between a legend and a myth? Because I remember that it's quite possible to take down legend with two rising heroes (and none of them being necromancer!) in a fair fight (ie: no herbs, just standing there and lashing out at each other etc.).

Then you remember pretty wrong
And yes the difference between legend and myth is fairly big

Yep, but that's Rhaegar, he always thinks he knows and remembers everything the best ;P

Freya wrote:While I do think things need to change to make PvP more fun for everyone, I do not think making a death cost a fantastic progress is the solution.


Death should still be a harsh thing after all. But the time limit to recovery could speed things up, hell make it 60 days for an ordinary death and then 30 days for a PvP death if you so wish.


As for the idea of having 2 heroes beat a myth, problem would be the possible abuse that would occur, getting a char up to hero takes me a week at most with some help(and I am sure there's those who can do it even quicker), problem is then, should 2 people who gotten to hero be able to kill me and take away what has taken me 250 game days and 10 years of gaming to build up ?


Of course I am going to say no to that


I'm all for leveling the PvP playingfeld some, but lets be realistic, if you punish everyone above hero, and give them 0 advantages, whats to say they will not leave the game or just create a new alt , join the best pfighting melee guild out there(read knights)and go on pkill rampage?

You spend 10 years PvE'ing your stats up. Fine.
I spent 14 years RPing, having fun that way. Also fine.

Should you be able to auto-win against me in PvP, because you chose to spend your time on PvE
while I chose RP? No.

If we made it so stats didn't count much in PvP, then with your huge stats, you have an advantage in PvE, which is where you got those huge stats in the first place. Which is fine, you become good at the things you do the most.
You roleplay and you (hopefully) create social connections, so that you have more people to roleplay with, or a better "role to play" even.
If you PvP more, you gain alot of knowledge on how to be good at that - which tricks, locations, equipment, tactics etc to use.
This change would also remove a huge part of the incentive to use bots, since you couldn't go around and abuse others in PvP, just because you had your bot running for the last 6 months.

In relations to your constant fear of abuse of any suggestion for a change...Well, I guess you love the status quo, which is why you fear any change so much.
To me, the abuse is already present in the status quo, where a select few can lord over the rest of the community.

I think a healthy discussion on this issue is good, but I don't think we will ever find a solution that will satisfy you, and the wish for levelling the playing field. ANYTHING can be abused, somehow, no matter what. But the status quo is abusive as it is.
I just hope the Admin listens to what would make them able to achieve their stated goal of doubling the playerbase, and not nessesarily that a select few oldtimers want to maintain the status quo.

All substantial change in this area would create a much healthier game environment, were people wouldn't be so afraid of being utterly dominated by a select few, and guildwars could also become more fun for most and not just the big characters, as the smaller players were/is ALWAYS the ones to die and eventually leave in frustration.
I think there is alot of good things that would come from making a very level playing field in PvP, along with a lower death penalty.


edit: Forgot a word.

As the largest character I have ever played has been a Hero I like Cherek's idea a lot I would like it just as much if I were a myth though.

I find it interesting that the vast majority of repeated arguments/complaints that players seem to have on forums revolve around three things: The size of the largest characters, PVP, and the Death Penalty. I bet if the wizards got rid of any one of these things complaints/arguments about the other two would significantly decrease...well maybe they would simply change focus. But still, I don't think these three things are working very well together now or have worked well together since I started playing in '98. It is the way these things interact that cause mortals all the grief and, I believe, has driven many people from the game over the years, and by doing so has shaped the environment we, as players here, exist in.

I think wizards should view Genesis independently of the playerbase that exists right now. Genesis is an amazingly attractive environment that has been created over many years and should be seen as that. I believe the attractiveness of this creation is often underestimated and outweighed by the needs and desires of the playerbase. Genesis is not the playerbase. Nor should the playerbase be given preferential treatment over the game itself. If even the most drastic of changes that people have suggested over the years where suddenly implemented, like extreme stat caps and major limiting of special equipment, there would still be a core group of players that would be here. And, the potential to attract new players would, at worst, not change at all, and might even improve. But what is actually Genesis would still be here waiting patiently for people to discover it. Not come back to it...or log in and do the same stuff they have been doing for the past 15 years yet again...but to truly discover it. That is what Genesis was created for and what it desperately needs.

I think if the goal is to get people to discover this environment, it should be molded into an environment that attracts the greatest number of people who have never played Genesis before. Why? Because that is where the potential for real growth is. Growth that will bring a variety of new ideas and creativity, populate the game and guilds with characters of different sizes, attract people interested in becoming wizards, and probably a whole bunch of other, unexpected benefits.

Instead, we have an environment where when somebody says 'no no, death should hurt and be difficult to recover from because that's what makes Genesis special' no one questions what dysfunctional environment could possibly lead to someone believing that. BTW this is nothing against Freya...I know many people feel this way. What I am questioning is what, in the game that we play today, has brought people to the point where they actually believe that this could possibly make sense for someone who has never played genesis before, or even for people who already play. I continue to play despite this element of the game, not because of it.

The same is true for the unlimited growth that exists is Genesis. I know many people believe that's one of the things that makes Genesis unique but, again, that is simply not going to make any sense at all to a new player, especially when combined with PvP and the death penalty.

The more I think about these things the more I realize that the only important problem in Genesis is the lack of new players and this problem is fundamentally rooted in the characters that have been here for years, myself included. What is definitely not a problem is the possibility of some of those older characters potentially leaving. The game has been changed in ways that support these older characters and in turn those characters play a style of game that supports the changes. This creates an environment that I believe makes no sense for new players who come here. They find they are alone in that no one of their size is around, realize quite soon that substantial growth is painfully slow and that the sizes of the largest characters are unattainable. (Yes Laurel...I know..... )

If all of us were deleted would genesis be gone? I think people should start to realize that the answer is no. It would still be here waiting patiently for those core players to show up, and the occasional newbie. In ten years, if some decisions were made about the game, independent of the playerbase, that fixed the unlimited growth/death penalty/PvP issue then although we might not be here, Genesis would be far better off then it is now. As it stands now, I don't believe something this drastic is necessary but what is needed is the vision to see beyond the current playerbase and the next set of statistics. A drop in the number of active players might be the best thing for the future of Genesis.

Excellent post Greywolf. I agree with every word.

I remember talking with an old cowboy in Texas once, who was bragging to me about how he and his buddies were great hunters, and would take their trucks out to a man-made salt lick, sit in the back of the truck and drink beer, while waiting for the deer to come by so they could shoot them. They called that “hunting.” Where I grew up, hunting like that would have been illegal and poor sportsmanship, I knew guys who wouldn’t even use guns, and would instead try to get an effective shot with a bow and arrow. The current PvP situation in Genesis seems to lean much more in favor of the drunk cowboys sitting at the salt lick rather than giving a “sporting chance” to the deer and actually requiring patience and skill to take down the physically weaker opponent. Just because you –can- do something doesn’t always mean that you –should- do something, and that’s where the wizards come in.

I play Genesis for RP and PvE, not PvP. The best RP opportunities in the game (currently, and IMHO) are faction-related, and so being in the SC I realize is justification enough for some “jackasses” (to use Freya’s word) to decide to try to kill Anahita even if the SC isn’t presently at war with anyone, and she’s pretty inoffensive. I personally don’t see how that would be at satisfying. I’d much rather a pfight be a result of something that happened in-game (example: a MM who repeatedly killed a much smaller SC on the same day, or a personal vendetta of Ana’s.)

The truth of the matter is that people don’t start acting like jackasses until they are too big to be killed easily, and then they only occasionally take on someone of equivalent size. You rarely hear of an expert running around with a list of names of people to kill just because it’s a Tuesday - duh, he'd be killed and rightly so. So they wait until they're a champion/myth/legend because they don’t want to die just as the rest of us don’t want to die, and they like their kills to be as effortless as sitting at a salt-lick with a 30.6. Guilds also seem less inclined to defend their own if the offender can come up with a flimsy excuse why the death was justified if the killer is big enough to be problematic for everyone (I’ll spare you a few recent examples.)

So make the deaths scalable – one of the wizards earlier in this thread said that they were hoping for more PvP to help keep people from growing too big. Great idea, but why not make it worth my time to go myth hunting – it’s a much harder thing to accomplish that kill, and should have greater rewards for the victor. A myth killing a hero shouldn’t have as big of a “reward” much the same way as a myth killing a hero-sized NPC is a smaller exp reward compared to a hero-player taking on the same NPC. A myth killing a hero should be less painful to the hero than that same person dying at the hand of someone of equivalent size. (I realize my examples presume one-on-one fights, but I’m sure someone smarter than me could figure out how to address teams involved in PvP.) It still allows someone to take vengence on a smaller player for spitting in their face, but incentivises the rest of us to go after the big jackasses who find their joy in the game not in RP but in killing the rest of us.

Anahita wrote:So they wait until they're a champion/myth/legend

actually most of "them" waited till they reached high myth, staying relatively uknown to the broad public

I have a suggestion. Make it so everyone who kills people more than two levels lower than himself have 'Bully' added to their title/description, and 'Champion' for everyone who kills people more than two levels higher.