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Oh I know the difference, however we are not sure about the tax, the actual caid given etc

Just cause oots has alot of useless spells doesent mean they arent taxed, Warlocks are more made to be functional, thats a huge point, its design, Warlocks are properly designed for function and theme, oots and Valars are all theme and like 1% function Wich is why people go warlock

Also the way you level in them have a huge draw, warlocks are... well not easier but less annoying to level than for instance oots with the casting crap, 3 weeks of not missing a single ritual in warlocks not 6 months of repeated casting

But purely caid compared to taxwise? Quite sure they are balanced due to the current balance document, so if you wanna go for magic guilds you need to see about going for that document and the system thats used Cause going after a guild thats balanced after it wont do squatt

Kvator, by your own admission and others here, both of the guilds you listed up guilds offer a variant of the core effects I mentioned with the exception of haste, which are presented in only one. A casterguild may have some, or even more core effects in their arsenal, depenting on design and intention by its creator.

Power or limitations are completely irrelevant to this argument.

Oooh, lots to look at here, and I can't say much about the OotS or EW's, as I've never been anything further than a seeker or ever an OotS myself:

SoHM/WoHS true sight vs warlocks dark vision/see invis spell - Yes, SoHM/WoHS get a bonus to awareness, but see invisibility is OP for layman.

SoHM/WoHS mage strength vs warlocks strength spell - Yes, SoHM/WoHS get a slight bonus to mana regen, but the layman warlocks get MORE strength (at least in offensive mode) AND a CON bonus. OP? Yes.

SoHM/WoHS heal spell vs warlocks heal spell - Who am I trying to kid, SoHM/WoHS don't have any heal spell, yes, I know you have to be in defensive mode to use it, buhu, so sad...

SoHM/WoHS speed spell vs warlocks speed spell - Yea, they are comparable. probably with the EW one as well... But WoHS is an occupational guild, not a layman guild.

So, SoHM/WoHS - Two Greater Spells and a Lesser Spell and a spell not available to them.
Warlocks - Got them all, and not even very difficult to get for someone who'll just be willing to take a trip to the guild now and then...
EW - No idea what's required to get it, except getting in.
OotS - A guild who actually got healing, but who's an actual clerical layman...

Rant? Possibly. Fact is, a SoHM/Warlock is quite overpowered, not because of SoHM, but because of Warlocks.
A R/BDA/Merc + Warlock titan is probably able to grind stuff a legend/myth BDA/Merc + 10 link BM today.

In my personal opinion, no layman guild should give the ability to see invisible, large stat boosts or any form of significant speed boost. No layman should have healing spells combined with offensive spells to inflict or increase damage.

But of course, this is my opinion, so now you can throw your arguments at me, angry about me, who have no layman guild, trying to nerf you


Tulasi Waylan the White

Edit:
Oh, did I mention that when WoHS/SoHM wants to cast true sight or strength etc we quaff a potion, and that is good enough for ONE spell.... Warlocks at least gets multiple charges out of their options...

1.Your opinion, seeing invis aint that bad nor is seeing darkness, the fact that true sight is a "major" spell in SoHM is however kinda stupid But laymans have had invis reveal and darkvision for years, just look at the old necromancers that are today closed

2. Magestrength is not a "strength" spell per se, its more there to make your mana regen quicker and there are certain ways to make it crank out more str aswell, the warlock spell is purely 2 stats. Also not the only layman that gets it Learn what you'r spell are made for

3. And no you dont "have to" be in defensive, you need to be in defensive for it to actually do shit tho, and "buhu"? Really? Congrats

4. Valars get even more speed Also thats coupled with drawbacks, cant have some spells running at the same time, defensive steals a ton of power from it etc

WoHS have AOE grind spells and prolly alot more of seriously epic spells, SoHM have much much heavier nukespells than warlocks can even dream of Its this nukespell combined with speed thats so lethal. So again, its the combo.

Getting the warlock spells demands xp and then rituals, rituals that are at a minimum 3 weeks to get all spells if you dont miss a single ritual.

EW, get in and grind some, not a horrible grind takes 2-3 days depending on how good you are at it

OOTS main issue is the number of useless spells and the frankly insane system of getting ranks.

Valars have a heal aswell Also the best speedspell of all laymans, its funny tho you're only crying about warlocks xD

Any caster guild can grind good if they have a tank Hell the second you can assist on mithas trolls if you have a tank you can pull insane xp.

The combo is not whats balanced, its the guild by itself, if a guild has awesome synergy with a speed layman, aye it will rule Its guild for guild, not guild+guild
Morgul mages get the same combo OCC+Layman, I can tell you that a mage who knows his shit will shred any SoHM/warlock any day of the week unless they are wearing a metric ton of resistance gear. QUITE sure Arman has made spells that if used correctly the WoHS will be stupidly good, you just need to know what you're doing.

And no, a DA/warlock at t itan cant grind mythstuff Not without resting each room unless they wimp, the very notion is stupid xD

Opinion aint the same thing as just beeing wrong, the guilds are balanced according to the standard today.

And yes, truesight is horribly balanced its not worthy of beeing a major spell and the warlocks need to spend quite alot of cash on their components

But just to say it again

OCC+Layman is not how they balance

OCC=Balanced
Layman=Balanced
Combo=Noone cares. Likelly cause there are way to many variables and guilds to consider.


So I'm not sure what you're crying about? Is it that a layman works to well with an OCC? Doesent matter, go join that combo if you have an issue with it. WoHS is more or less just SoHM with a layman added into the guild technically, you get a much bigger spellarsenal, way trickier to resist when you can go any element. You've got a speedspell now? Awesome your LAYMAN addition gave that to you, but now we have to remove that I suppose?

Tulasi wrote:In my personal opinion, no layman guild should give the ability to see invisible, large stat boosts or any form of significant speed boost. No layman should have healing spells combined with offensive spells to inflict or increase damage.

Do I understand it right and you want (ooc + layman) magic guilds to have greater powers than other guild setups?

[Other possibilities: occ magic + layman magic, occ fighter + layman fighter and occ fighter + layman magic.]

But why?
Why should a Gladiator + EW be lesser than a WoHM?

MMs and ECs can still slay a single npc much easier/quicker than a Gladiator/DA/AA/Merc + Warlock of comparable size.
Unless the npc has a high magic resistance, which is rare.

I should start a thread 'Nerf occ magic guilds. They are overpowered'.

1. That other guilds have had this before is hardly an argument even worth commenting on, it's like when a child says "I want this because some other kid had it!". I'm not saying "take it away from warlocks", I'm saying "take it away from ALL layman guilds!"

2. High STR and CON bonus isn't too powerful for layman... nope, I hear ya...

3. Yea, you got the irony, right, no? Oh, cool, check out #2 here then one extra time.

4. I do not know what the Valar have after they just got out of recode, or even if they will stay with what they have, but I'll take your word for it... What was it about "speed should not be given in layman guilds" you didn't get again? Just curious, since I can probably try to use smaller words if required.

Again, WoHS and SoHM are OCCUPATIONAL guilds. AoE grind has been around for a LONG time, like the Morgul Mages, just as an example, another guild that is OCCUPATIONAL. SoHM have no AoE.

Actually, you can get all the spells in warlocks without grinding, just keep doing rituals. SoHM requires searching out the spells, scribing them and then memorize SOME of them, not even all of them. And there are spell-combinations that can't be used, so your whine on #3 up there is actually worse than the toddler argument you had on #1.

What other laymans have or do not have of speed is not relevant, as I've already stated I believe they should not have speed spells whatsoever. Same goes for spells that give large stat-boosts. When it comes to healing, that should be reserved for clerical laymans, and yes, there should be more distinct differences between clerical and magic guilds on Genesis, offensively and defensively.

And I'm not saying OCC+Layman balancing, I'm saying any OCC with warlock layman is OP basically because of Warlocks.



Syrk:

I'm not saying a <whatever> + EW should be weaker than a OCC/Lay combo guild. I'm saying a fighterOCC + magicLAY should not be as powerful in MAGIC as a OCC/Lay combo MAGIC guild. or a MagicOCC + FighterLAY should not be as good in melee combat as a OCC/Lay combo FIGHTER guild.

And you seem to know so much about npc's and their magic resistances... How long will the Mage, EC or, even though you didn't mention us, WoHS have to spend preparing for that one fight?

Tulasi wrote:...

I'm not saying a <whatever> + EW should be weaker than a OCC/Lay combo guild. I'm saying a fighterOCC + magicLAY should not be as powerful in MAGIC as a OCC/Lay combo MAGIC guild. or a MagicOCC + FighterLAY should not be as good in melee combat as a OCC/Lay combo FIGHTER guild.

And you seem to know so much about npc's and their magic resistances... How long will the Mage, EC or, even though you didn't mention us, WoHS have to spend preparing for that one fight?

What is this "melee combat" that you talk about?

Are you just saying that magic user class should always be much more powerful than a same-size melee class?

I get it, *some* magic guilds (and i bundle clerics into this definition, because there seems to me there isn't any technical difference) require you to go out and prepare for combat. Some (PoT) - a lot, some (*chuckle*, you know who you are) - pretty much not at all.

I just want to stress this point that you make again, for clarity:

A fighter/magic person should not be as powerful as magic/fighter one.

...

Why? Are you (magic people) better than melee people? What is it that you think that makes YOU so special?

Please, tell us!

Its an amazing argument since it proves you have no idea what you're on about Even used to have a racial with DV Now thats out of whack.

Not according to the balance rules no, and again, its not uncommon You're bitching about warlocks not the guild that has had it for ages xD And again, if you know how the spell works you can get a bigger boost from magestr

"Buhu, laymans get alot of powers but I'm to ignorant to understand that I also have a built in layman with maxed power aswell" Lets see, you got the addition of a speedspell and a couple of nukespells from the layman right? AoE I might add?

No there is alot you dont know, and speed is perfectly fine to give to laymans, I might not think that the level currently given is balanced but thats for Arman to decide, and again, your added LAYMAN part now gave you both speed an aoe nuking, I trust you will be advocating to have them removed? No? Weird...

SoHM aint got an aoe thats one right atleast, congrats. Your layman addition however does And I am not sure you should be calling anyone a toddler since you're screaming like a 5 year old over something that doesent even effect you cause you have no idea how stuff works. I truly hope you dont train the comming White robes to be overgrown children

No you need to grind to get to the ritual level so you can choose a patron, seriously you're crying over stuff you have no idea about?

Sure, then nuking should be for mageguilds alone? And lets see, if we then remove the caid given from the speed and stats... it has to go somewhere, do you really want to boost all other warlockspells instead? And what about EC? Should they get healing only? Beeing per definition clerics I believe they should right? Suppose immortality spells will be added? Perhaps "heal party" brings your party to 100% and costs 2 mana

" I'm saying any OCC with warlock layman is OP basically because of Warlocks."
As is the case with EW and have been for... 10? years, for someone wich such strong (and missdirected) oppinions, you sure as hell dont know alot, there are fighter only combos that can take out casters of equal size without a huge hassle. I'm quite sure the balancing system and document wont be changing cause of you All you're doing is harping on warlocks, is it cause people that might wanna take you out are able to compete at the same level now or?

Tbh as long as both sides are able to get it and they are within the balance documentation, its not an issue. Wich att magical laymans are. And again, its not even your guild None of them are hell you seem to not know the first thing about warlocks so whats the crying about? Its also a layman so chances that they will start a war t hat might effect you, considering they have no council or leaders, is zero

Nerull wrote: Power or limitations are completely irrelevant to this argument.

Power and limitations are everythig in my argument.

Fact that two layman guilds offer unlimited speed which you can't get otherwise (even with full speed eq) is crazy. Heralds are bit out of scope here since they can't use it on most of their go-to killing grounds (unluckily for them all best 'open-air' grinding zones are for evils only - ents, quali, centaurs - leaving just mithas and part of haradrims to use their speed at....oh but wait! Haradrims are super close to Sauron so it's not a good place for them after all )

Yes I am mostly against this speed - since u can get infravision/invisibility detection/stat boost easily via other means.

Add to it the fact that they can swap super strong offensive setup with super strong defensive setup at a whim is like a cherry on top (look at sohms/wohs here - they have a cooldown for their spell memorization).

Honestly two full speed levels should be all here (so equivalent of like 3 decent speed items) and such immense boost should be reserved for kenders and recoded archers!

Well to begin with it is a OCC+layman so they can carry a heavier guildtax and thus get more caid, the difference from sohm is more skills, layman slot, more spells, different guildhall and I presume more spellslots You likelly carry over spells and skills from sohm? So... its adding a layman guildtax allowance Its what it actually is even if you wanna try making it fancy.

I'm not even close to as confused on the matter of occ and layman or the merging of them as you are on the layman allowed power, and thankfully its not likelly to get changed cause of your ranting Lay+occ guilds get more power from one guild, you have had the layman part added and thus gotten x 1+1=? C'mon you know this. This is actually what you've gotten, even tho you think its something more, all you have done is been given more caid to convert into spells, spellslots etc so its OCC Caid+Lay Caid.

Not going to go into EW function here cause it gives Gorboth gas but depending on the diety and OCC? Yes you could still pull fucked up combos, it was not versatile enough to draw alot of people tho also tons of silly rules and other crap.

The new balance document wich is the standard now that allows stats and speed in laymans. Thats just how it is and that is cause it counts as far as I got it, the number of caid allowed active at any one time, hence the defensive mode etc I'mma use you'r own stupid words here "You seem to be totally confused about what a layman is allowed to have so I urge you to just stop trying to use it as an argument" Since you really have no idea or actual reason other than butthurt to cry about it

Oh and on something you wrote as a reply to Zuggie, 20 mins grind for mats for 40 minutes grind? As PoT I can believe that cause of some of their insane costs but I sure as hell didnt do even close to that prep as compared to how much I can nuke as SoHM