Need for a change

[Ilrahil]

Targun:

I totally agree about your thoughts about neutrality and RP.

But the rest?

It's a fact that pretty much everything thats good in this game goes to the good aligned guilds exclusively

Say what? How is that a fact? I can see no proof on that whatsoever, here or elsewhere. And I am not goodie-biased at all. I think evils have a lot of cool things goodies dont too. And I mentioned them earlier. I am sure goodies wanna portal around, fly around, scare people with dragons and stun people so they cant move...

Just as evils want goodie abilities like move behind, swarm, brawl and rescue.

All pvp treats went to good aligned guild, all team treats went to them likewise.

I think the ogres have the best PvP threat in the realms when it comes to fighters. And ogres are NOT a neutral guild. They ally themselves with evils in almost all cases. MM's are for sure the most dangerous PvP guild. And dont say they are not evil-biased. Yes evils fight evils sometimes but thats not a problem of code. Its the guilds themselves who start fighting. Quite realistic actually, evils do tend to fight amongst themselves? Vampires also had some of the best PvP abilities a long time, and they were clearly evil as well for the most part.

What PvP serious abilities does goodies have?

And yes, goodies have the best tanker-guild, and the best offensive perhaps. But those two guilds also have huge drawbacks. And especially with so few people around a generalist guild like say BDA has an edge over both Neidars and Calians. How often do you see a Neidar and Calian team up? Well, since Irik/Ahith... none? If combined correctly it sounds deadly, but all the times they are not, they are also weak. BDA for instance is "fairly good" all the time.

Cherek are you this outdated from the game?

Necros are losing portals at recodes, that is common knowledge. Dragonfear... let me see I have the best dragon in game and would you like to know how many players I've stunned with my dragons? 1, and it was when we were fighting Emerald and he was on my team.

Goodies do get a lot of the treats. There are more unbreakable/undullable weapons that they can use. Goodie only weapons other than SOH also have much greater perks than evil only. Red-runed greaves which used to be evil only got changed to be neutral.

What PVP abilities do they have? YOU HAVE GOT TO BE KIDDING ME!

Try killing a Calian unless he's solo (which you rarely see.) All they do is move behind. If you attack them again they riposte you for quite a bit of damage. Try fighting a specific target when there is a team with a knight or multiple knights in it. All they do is rescue rescue rescue. Not to mention there block is exponentially better and longer than anything anyone else including mercenaries can do. SC has their shadow walls which make everyone tired (just more so undead.)

As has been pointed out Ogres have been used by both sides and are a neutral guild.

So for PvP what do evils have? An insanely imbalanced poison which I've commented on multiple times as needing to be nerfed, and dragonfear which has been pointed out is not very easy to paralyze people with.

Best Guild for DPS (aside from Union who is neutral) = Calians
Best Guild for tanking (even better than monks) = Neidar
Best overall guild in Genesis for combat = Knights

Another stupid change that was made to be pro-goodie was when knights were suddenly allowed to summon their horses Everywhere even indoors so they could use charge.

Targun raised excellent points and it is nice to see someone else who is not in my group of immediate/close friends agreeing with certain standpoints we have.

[Rhaegar]

I've got to admit also that I am aware that choosing AA for a monk is not a very good move rp-wise. Still I did it due to the fact that I tend to grind alone and my options as a monk for laymans are extremely limited. So I was trying to go for lesser evil here. Truth to be told the only RP-ok choices for a monk are Minotaurs (you need to change your race though for a cow), Pirates and Minstrels.

I've always found Elemental Worshippers to be the best choice for monks RP-wise and a very good choice overall:
a) neutral
b) similar principles
c) abilities that help monks (stoneskin? - forgot what Gu guys get this days, haste, fireball, heal, take your pick)

They're better than minos for the monk layman slot because the extra damage output isn't really worth the loss of a helm and boots.
And EW provide you with frost shield which helps with tanking.
AA perhaps offers better defence but they're not neutral, not-so-hot RP-wise and lack the general utility factor EW give you.

EW is such an overlooked guild... Everyone just wants more combat specials.

@ Ilrahil:
Didn't notice your post before.
I'd like to comment on the dragon part a bit. While they don't paralyze like they used to (dragonfear trap days are long over) they increase your damage output (both with their breath and by lowering enemy defence and parry) and reduce the damage output of the enemy (slow), and they do that to everyone, not just a single target so the effect gets better the more foes you're fighting.
Ever seen what happens to titan level human with 2 dragons flying overhead? Def/parry at superior acolyte isn't all that great...
And on top of that it allows you to travel quickly to certain locations, with company. It's a pretty decent utility tool.

[Alorrana]

Targun

Alorrana I'm not sure if you are aware of what you just said.

What did i say.. I usually tend to make no sense here.. My bad. I have the mad cow.. cant help it. but what im trying to say, is reasons we got nerfted, good aswell as bad, was people cant controle the powers..

But what is it people are going for here?? we want..? more RP, More dam? more skills, more ? what.. Again i Have the mad cow, I dont get what it is people want.?

I see there is a little rant on AA here aswell. Please stop it... If you dont like aa put it up on the Flame, Im sick and tired of listening to them not fitting in, or not playing a role in the current me.. Move that to the flame section.

But i suspect it the old good vs evil.. And i wouldnt mind goodies having better abilities if the badguys had the more Damage dealing special.

[Cherek]

Ilrahil: I am not against balance at all. I am just arguing, and sharing my view. I dont think goodies get all the best things. Far fram. How outdated I am I dont know. Most likely less than you, but who isnt?

Saying things are "common knowledge" is dangerous. It may be for YOU, but not for everyone, far from everyone who plays the game know that much about technical stuff, or even care.

About the necros, maybe they will be changed, but on the other hand all magic guilds are to be changed arent they? Who knows how it will end up on a global balance. It might even improve?

I did not claim DA dragons stun. You have dragons which give some advantages, both in traveling and fighting. I said its a neat thing you have goodies probably would like to be able to do.

Everyone always want what the "other side" has.

So whats your suggestion then Ilrahil? Or Freya? Or Targun? Its been alot of complaining, and if you dont know Gorboth and the wizards they for the most part like good thought through positive suggestions.

What would balance things in your opinion?

[Targun]

Greneth
Could you please rephrase your post? I'm not sure how to understand it- my bad...
Rhaegar
Yep you're right. Forgot about them in my note. Power Play- not a good option for a monk though. AA is purely for dmg. The mechanics of 'Cover' makes it neglectible with monks defence- I won't go into details here, can explain with pm. Remember that dragons also render your tank abilities heavily- making his def/parry skills on par with BDA= you don't need a tank, which makes teams of BDA+tank kind of crappy.
Cherek
If someone is Neutral here these are ogres. I for once have seen an ogre with a knight and others PvPing. I mean think of that combination- Block+stomp+rescue. Yes, ogres should be evils, they are not. They are a guild of solo grinders, with some seconds to help their main's guilds. When Targun was an Ogre/Pirate he used to team with Neidars/Calians. Not on a regular basis, but still it happened.
Furthermore look at your own post. In one line you managed to come up with:move behind, swarm, brawl, resccue, add to that Neidars Stuns, best healing, best cleric guild. So you actually put on the scale a neutral guild without a council where you are free to do whatever you like, when absolutely NOTHING stops you from aligning with goodies- which happened in the past and happens now, with 4 extremely powerful and exlusive to goodies abilities. Block is far superior to stomp btw. So you put ZERO against EVERYTHING. Balance? I see none.

Huge drawbacks? Is there any mob that a Neidar cannot kill that any other guild can? I think not. Calians yes, they cannot go solo, but absolutely everyone will love a calian on their back, plus their team skills- that's a drawback? You possibly cannot believe your own words. Team of Neidar+Calian outdoes any combination of neutral/evil guilds in the game by a mile. I will not go on the botting here, but we all know what guilds were champions here.
There is absolutely nothing evil guilds can compare with here. BDA is a decent solo grind, with nice dmg. Can it be though compared to what goodies have? In fact they are the last bation of evils. Scarcely some PoT and AA laymans who choose their guild purely for power and stay neutral in their behaviour/roleplay.

The 'who' commands speaks for itself. There are very few players- many of them left after the nerf of AA and probably many are just bored with a game where the only thing to do is grind with the only 'right' side. Personally I would love if the game was steaming with PvP. Healthy rivalry. When players would be hunting each other, having interestingly distributed skills and don't care so much if they die or grind their ass to myth, but just having fun. It's not going to happen with the 'balance' of today. I mean, wake up guys. The number of players stays at best at the same level, despite all the effort. We lost lots of people after AA nerf. RDA is dead, PoTs are almost dead. We never had wizards so active, so responding and still there is no improvement. It's time to face it- normal people do not want to play vanillia. For normal people it's not a challenge to play against text envirnoment, but against real people. They want allies and enemies to roleplay and PvP.

Finally. I say this. Evils have it better? I am willing to bet money 90% of evils if offered a switch, would go for it. So from lets say tomorrow all good guys get evil abilities-make your ogres goodie only, noone will mind-and all evils get goodies abilities? Sounds fair? A deal? If you say the game is balanced why not? I gladly take all the drawbacks the goodies possibly have.. I mean please do not take me wrong. I really like you guys. I'd like to team with you, RP with you PvP you. But can't you see that with your attitude we have players leaving? If so much is done for the game, how come the playerbase stays the same? The answer is- crappy balance.

[Alorrana]

What would balance things in your opinion?

Can the game be balanced? and should it.. ? thats my question.. ? Why should we all be equal? those lesser equal should have more abilities.. to counter, But making all guilds equal in dam and skills sucks. why dont we all become mercs then..

Guilds are the special thing here, diffrent guilds diffrent skills.. I agree there have to be a sort of a balance, and i think there was, some guilds where strong, but could be countered with the right items, problem is those items got hoarded by hoarders just to be put in a rack and not to be put in good use.. but the items was there..

Agreed some was just nutty overpowered, and they needed a nerf, but to say every one has to be equal is not the way i want to play the game.

On the Neidars and Calians beeing neutral, thats just BS. they are good guilds, only team with goodies, and only goodie laymans to them.. so fuck them, they might be coded neutral, but the players surely considere them self holy, and i bet if all neidar went evil they would be changed to work. Now, there are like 2 active neidars.. and thats it. and they are pretty uptight about beeing goodies.. so..

And on the good side getting all the good things i dont know.. Ive been in 3 guilds only.. Glads, Mercs(old ones) and AA. One never really worked(glads) and was promised updates and a new tyr and uhh and Ihh and Amen. but nothing ever really changed, they got some upps on skills, but still uber suck. Mercs the old ones. Yeah they might be a rip off from AA but it worked, peoples causes and block. and old reliable, Mattack... They got closed.. Oh well,. On to AA. Nerf nerf nerf, and here we are.. in a guild people would rather join layman than occ. that just tells you the occ part sucks. Uber, and it does. Alot.. Smash and Smack.. forget it.. but about goodies getting more than evils.. I dont know.. mabye.. and if the evils had the more damage output, then i suspect it would be alright.. but truth is, we dont.. ofc with uber duber eq we would do decent, but with everyone hoarding everything and the costs of the imbuments are sickining.. then as a "regular" geared fighter, you will struggle. but to be honest i dont know.. :-S

[Ilrahil]

Another great note Targun.

Cherek I'm not necessarily saying I know how to balance the guilds. I'm saying that as a predominately evil character its frustrating to see the level of things stacked against me and my friends in ways of abilities hard coded into the game.

I'll toot my own horn here. The ONLY reason BDA got back on track was a series of successful generals ending with me and active recruiting of quite a few of the remaining evils who were bored with their other homes. Just because its one of the most active guilds does not mean its the best. It just means that its the best evil guild at the moment, because you can either tank remotely well, or do damage.

Those options get lost on RDA because the majority of polearms are 2 handed, and the complex medicine stick heals only goodies so its not very valuable any longer. And AA well poor AA, the guild literally got castrated. *sympathizes with Alorrana and pats her on the back for staying with it*

And yea there's the only options evils have for combat... they all pretty much suck, but BDA is the most bearable of them all.

[Tive]

These guilds are not neutral they are good. If Rhynox will be for 10 years writing that Neidars are neutral baecause in some book, someone wrote their god is neutral it's not making them neutral, it makes it jus ridiculous. For 15 or 20 years Neidars were tied only to the good aligned guilds, to my knowledge they cannot use their special abilities with evil alignment. They were always part of the alliance, there has never been an evil neidar among their ranks nor there ever was a member of evil guilds among SB. So lets stick to the facts not somebody's vision that had never been and never will be true. I mean seriously Rhynox- reading the same thing over and over for ten years. Don't you get tired?

There was time when Neidars quit the alliance and tried to be neutral, but thanks to some individuals they got involved in war with DAs again and were forced to rejoin or feel the pain . And as far as I remember there were also a few exiled members who liked to team with baddies, hehe.

[Cherek]

Targun:

I wasnt about to list everything, just made a few comparisions... I dont have enough knowledge or metarial to actually list any specific numbers on what is balanced and what is not.

How much does the ability to grind anything you like stand up against resuce? I have no idea. Its very tough to balance. We're comparing apples and oranges, the abilities good and evils have are very different for the most part.

I am not saying you are utterly wrong, I am just saying you can look at something from several points of view. I personally have the feeling evlis dominate the realms, with many of the bigger characters being evil and good ones do not even dare to enter a war.

About PvP and human interaction I completely agree with you. That is what I want to see too. However, I do not think the _main_ problem is balance. I actually think the players of Genesis leave the game at a much SLOWER rate than almost any other game. The problem here is we almost do not GAIN any players. You claim we have no players despite everything that has been done... Well nothing has been done yet really... Gorboth has said so himself. We're still waiting for a webpage for instance... and no promotion campaign yet. Of course I want balance, but I dont think its the main reason we are few players.

But then again, what would you suggest then? What could balance things out? If you think there is a lack of balance?

We cant just copy goodie abilities to evils, and evil abilities to goodies so everyone has the same. That sounds boring...

[Cherek]

Ilrahil: Well... give it a shot?

How about adding evil an side to minstrels as they once had? So evil minstrels are discples of whatever it was before. Minstrels are neutral but I guess no evils wanna be one since it is kinda silly running around playing an instrument?

That would even healing out a bit atleast.

Change necros runeshield to some type of continous dark team-healing / team-damage absorb ability? That would be cool perhaps? More useful in a team and less of a loner-thing like runeshield.

Or perhaps they, or the priests could have some type of ability that renders a team-member immune to attacks for a little while? That could be a very powerful "team-tactics" ability. Bring a priest or necromancer to cast temporary invulnerability on the tanker, and whoever is attacking will have to switch their attack to someone else. Sounds cool? And most likely as powerful as move behind and swarm combined, especially as it could be used on everyone in a team?

Adjust AA to more of a tanking guild for evils? And maybe give DAs the ability for their dragon to NOT cause fear on their own team? Making dragons a more useful offensive ability in team with others.

Or make RDA more of an "evil" calian type guild? Up their offensive power, make BDA the tankers and RDA the offensive guild?

Etc etc...

I think if you come up with an idea for something you think is lacking, and present it in a reasonable way, who is to say it wont be implemented?

I do think wizards too want balance and I seriously doubt any conspiracy theories. I simply think they could use any help they can get from us players.

But then again, soon goodies will start claiming evils are way to powerful if you overdo it ofcourse.