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My application and time as a squire in knights took me around 2.5 months. And I think that is a good time period. Applicants get a feeling for what kind of roleplay is expected of them as a squire before joining (my application was around 2 weeks) and then as a squire I had to learn patience since my mentor only woke up once a week. And during my squirehood I learned how to act as a knight in a bit more detail but I also learned some bad habits from some very senior knights. The only really annoying part was that my mentor in the beginning forbidded me from leaving the area around VK and Palanthas and then he forgot about it.

A lot of people will be saying that 2.5 months is too long now days but I don't agree. Your interaction with your guild starts as a applicant or maybe even before and it has several stages. All of those stages are part of that guild and game. If you don't enjoy your application and learning period then don't join a guild that have them. But I think that a lot of people just want to join a guild as fast as possible to then go out and use the new powers to grow.


What is good rp?
That is a very hard question since there are a infinit ways to roleplay. You can be a great roleplayer that roleplays a arrogant, nasty, elitist knight that hates beggers and peasants, or a kind hearted DA soldier that is just there to do a job, his family was starving and this was the only paying job.

It is easier to say what I think is bad rp. I hate seing people in guilds that goes against basic guild theme to be able to grind or get good eq. Examples would be PoTs, Templars and DAs protecting Neraka but grinding trolls there themself. Angmarias or mages protecting Ithilien but that grinds Haradrims or gets BPs from the trolls. I hated it when they changed the rules in Knights to allow to use some weapons that had been forbidden for as long as I could remember. Or members of one guild that is supposed to hate a certain race or has a very bad history with another guild and you see them teaming with that race or guild. And then of course when big members never get punished by the council because they are the biggest members and they bring the great eq back to the guild.

These were just some example of things that really annoys me when I see them and I usually try to point it out when I do to spread this idea. But most people don't really care.

arcon wrote:
It is easier to say what I think is bad rp. I hate seing people in guilds that goes against basic guild theme to be able to grind or get good eq. Examples would be PoTs, Templars and DAs protecting Neraka but grinding trolls there themself. Angmarias or mages protecting Ithilien but that grinds Haradrims or gets BPs from the trolls. I hated it when they changed the rules in Knights to allow to use some weapons that had been forbidden for as long as I could remember. Or members of one guild that is supposed to hate a certain race or has a very bad history with another guild and you see them teaming with that race or guild. And then of course when big members never get punished by the council because they are the biggest members and they bring the great eq back to the guild.

These were just some example of things that really annoys me when I see them and I usually try to point it out when I do to spread this idea. But most people don't really care.

I dont disagree with the above at all. However as you say "most people don't really care". Would that not indicate that most people simply dont want the level of RP you do? Or maybe they really want it but has just become lazy? Or its chain reaction? A person notices someone doesnt care about RP, and doesnt care herself, etc. And the opposite of course, but currently more rare? It would be interesting to know what people really feel. What if, say, 90% of the population is happy with the current level of RP? Should we still work to have more RP? And hope players either adapt, or simply leave and are replaced by players who want to RP?

(90% is not a real number, I just picked it as an example).

I am not really sure what I think on the matter, but I think these are interesting questions to discuss!

Kiara wrote:

arcon wrote:
It is easier to say what I think is bad rp. I hate seing people in guilds that goes against basic guild theme to be able to grind or get good eq. Examples would be PoTs, Templars and DAs protecting Neraka but grinding trolls there themself. Angmarias or mages protecting Ithilien but that grinds Haradrims or gets BPs from the trolls. I hated it when they changed the rules in Knights to allow to use some weapons that had been forbidden for as long as I could remember. Or members of one guild that is supposed to hate a certain race or has a very bad history with another guild and you see them teaming with that race or guild. And then of course when big members never get punished by the council because they are the biggest members and they bring the great eq back to the guild.

These were just some example of things that really annoys me when I see them and I usually try to point it out when I do to spread this idea. But most people don't really care.

I dont disagree with the above at all. However as you say "most people don't really care". Would that not indicate that most people simply dont want the level of RP you do? Or maybe they really want it but has just become lazy? Or its chain reaction? A person notices someone doesnt care about RP, and doesnt care herself, etc. And the opposite of course, but currently more rare? It would be interesting to know what people really feel. What if, say, 90% of the population is happy with the current level of RP? Should we still work to have more RP? And hope players either adapt, or simply leave and are replaced by players who want to RP?

(90% is not a real number, I just picked it as an example).

I am not really sure what I think on the matter, but I think these are interesting questions to discuss!

If this were the case we should just take away all the guilds and let people choose their own skills and just place random racks around for a group of people to claim as their own. And of course stop claiming to be a rpg and instead be honest and call us a action game.


Edit: I just thought of something. Any time anyone new would want to join one of those groups to use their racks they would most likely have to prove that they had knowledge about the game/eq and knew how to grind fast so guess what thats called an application....

arcon wrote:
If this were the case we should just take away all the guilds and let people choose their own skills and just place random racks around for a group of people to claim as their own. And of course stop claiming to be a rpg and instead be honest and call us a action game.

Yup. That might also be a fun game though. Action-mud.com

Arcon wrote:If this were the case we should just take away all the guilds and let people choose their own skills and just place random racks around for a group of people to claim as their own. And of course stop claiming to be a rpg and instead be honest and call us a action game.

That is what has always been weird to me about the "people just don't like to rp" argument. Why play Genesis then? I just don't get playing a rp game that is text based without it, especially one billed as such. I guess it's one thing if you are playing an mmo and there are pve/pvp/rp servers that have some subdivision for the type of player. But since Genesis is advertised as an rp game....it seems on some level that at the time of character creation, everyone wanted that. So I guess the better question is, what changed?

Amorana wrote:

Arcon wrote:If this were the case we should just take away all the guilds and let people choose their own skills and just place random racks around for a group of people to claim as their own. And of course stop claiming to be a rpg and instead be honest and call us a action game.

That is what has always been weird to me about the "people just don't like to rp" argument. Why play Genesis then? I just don't get playing a rp game that is text based without it, especially one billed as such. I guess it's one thing if you are playing an mmo and there are pve/pvp/rp servers that have some subdivision for the type of player. But since Genesis is advertised as an rp game....it seems on some level that at the time of character creation, everyone wanted that. So I guess the better question is, what changed?

Good point. I think I have a pretty good theory on that.

Reason 1. - We all know each other.
Most players in the game havr been here for what? 10 years? 15? More? Most people have a bunch of characters, and everyone knows everyone. I think in many situations people just dont bother RPing since they've known each other for a decade. And when joining new guilds, sometimes people dont bother with a "real" application either, for the same reasons. If your friend wants to join, you want to be nice and let him/her in. Some keep up the RP still, but many dont. its pretty weird that we've been here so long, usually people dont stick to the same game that long. Most games dont exist that long. There is basically no multi user game that has been around this long at all. It's pretty amazing, but the negative side to this, that so few leave and so few truly new join, simply must take its toll on RP. I think it's pretty logical. We really need truly new players to "mix up" the crowd a little. Then I think we old ones would probably start RPing a bit more too. If you dont know the person you meet in Sparkle since 10 years ago... chances are you'll be a little more serious with your RP. Just like in real life. I mean, people act very different around their childhood friend and around a someone they meet for the first time.

Reason 2. - Lack of conflicts.
Why bother with RP when the game has really turned into mostly a co-op game where the goal is to grow stats? RP is not really needed for that. In the past all guilds had enemies and allies, and often these alliances and conflicts would shift. It was world that changed often, and when you logged in you didnt really know what was gonna happen. Most game sessions involved some unexpected events. This meant you were constantly being put into RP situations, so you had to RP. At least a little. Even involuntarily, simply by being attacking/attacking someone your guild opposed, you were contributing to RP.

Now? Most people are friends, both in game and out of it. Most guilds have treaties with their enemies because neither side wants to fight. Fighting would mean your XP/hour rate goes down of course. Yes, that is a very big reason people dont fight. It's simply more interesting to gain XP. But the biggest reason I think is the same as number 1 above - you're friends with your enemies. Or have characters in both guilds. The game is made to have opposing factions, politics, and conflicts. Take that away, which we have, we have a co-op game about level growth instead. In that game, little RP is needed.

Everyone keeps _saying_ they want more conflicts though, but as soon as there is something starting to happen people usually start complaining about harassment, imbalanced guilds, people leaving the game when being killed, etc. Oh, and lets not forget the "I dont wanna kill X because I know him on Skype/iRL" etc. In the past nobody cared about that. If I was an angmar and my friend at the computer beside me was a knight I'd smash him anyway. And we'd laugh about it afterwards. Now you dont wanna fight your friends for some reason. Because if you do it suddenly becomes personal. People get upset iRL. Because this is no longer a game, people care SO much about it, I think we've forgotten it is a game. I think if people would manage to fight in game and still be friends outside it, we'd have a start.

Also, I think people need to try to accept conflict as part of the game again.

I noticed during my own little conflict experiment that I constantly need to explain my reasons to people. That some think I go too far. That I am being too mean to the mages. And so on. I think this really shows how "friendly" the game has become. When a hostile move by ONE players towards another guild is questioned by the community I think something is not right. Every time a mage kills someone there are tons of complaints. Now, when I attempt to fight the mages, there is plenty of complaints at that too. Yet in other threads most people agree that the game needs more conflicts. Well... do we want conflicts or not?

Both for activity, and for RP, I think conflicts are KEY. And that means people need to remember we are playing a GAME, just because you kill someone, or steal a pack from someone, it doesnt mean it's personal. It doesnt mean you betray your RL/Skype friends. It _should_ mean you're having fun battling each other and enjoying the game. Thats the idea with conflicts. Things that draw people to the game. You win some and lose some, and return to play the next day. And every day, something new happens. That was how the game once was, and if it's ever gonna be as fun again I think we need to get there again. And with conflicts, RP will come. Since you'll be put in positions where RP is needed.

Kiara, as usual I agree with you.

In one line: RP has fallen by the wayside because it's been allowed to.

With respect to RP: As a Manager (believe it or not) the theory of "You get the behaviour you tolerate." is inscribed into my brain. When it comes to roleplaying, guild applications, culture and general attitudes, you get the behaviour you tolerate. If it was socially unacceptable to team with players who don't RP, we wouldn't do it. No one would team with that guy "who doesn't RP because it's not interactive enough and against the spirit of the game"

Bring back the Actor's Club. Reward those who successfully contribute to RP. If you can't punish those who choose not to RP (other than not letting them into your guild/teaming with them) then reward those who do RP.

Guild Applications: It starts with active guild leadership that is invested in the guild not only succeeding in growth, gear-hoarding, etc. but the overall vision. We can all name a few guilds off the top of our heads that have shaky leadership at best. No need to name names, but when we think of those guilds, a lot of how we perceive the overall guild is based on the leaders. "Oh it's a great guild except it's run by XYZ."

Guild members: How many of you think of someone when you hear the line "Ugh I can't stand so-and-so in my guild but they definitely know how to eq-hunt so I'll deal with their lack of RP/politeness/etc." Why does this happen? It's tolerated. Guild racks full = more members active = more fun guild. But at the cost of RP.

In my opinion, it may be worthwhile if guild-wizards stepped in and "coached" leadership. Take pride in your creation/charge. Don't need to hold hands, but it may not be the worst thing ever to gently guide/suggest ways they can improve. I'm all for mortals figuring things out, but in a lot of guilds the leaders are untouchable except in extreme circumstances. I know in Krynn guilds there are ways to overthrow leadership, but let's be honest, some people just don't want the burden of responsibility. Maybe if the existing and willing leaders were trained/helped things wouldn't necessarily spiral downward. Just a thought.

Manglor wrote:Kiara, as usual I agree with you.

In one line: RP has fallen by the wayside because it's been allowed to.

With respect to RP: As a Manager (believe it or not) the theory of "You get the behaviour you tolerate." is inscribed into my brain. When it comes to roleplaying, guild applications, culture and general attitudes, you get the behaviour you tolerate. If it was socially unacceptable to team with players who don't RP, we wouldn't do it. No one would team with that guy "who doesn't RP because it's not interactive enough and against the spirit of the game"

Bring back the Actor's Club. Reward those who successfully contribute to RP. If you can't punish those who choose not to RP (other than not letting them into your guild/teaming with them) then reward those who do RP.

Guild Applications: It starts with active guild leadership that is invested in the guild not only succeeding in growth, gear-hoarding, etc. but the overall vision. We can all name a few guilds off the top of our heads that have shaky leadership at best. No need to name names, but when we think of those guilds, a lot of how we perceive the overall guild is based on the leaders. "Oh it's a great guild except it's run by XYZ."

Guild members: How many of you think of someone when you hear the line "Ugh I can't stand so-and-so in my guild but they definitely know how to eq-hunt so I'll deal with their lack of RP/politeness/etc." Why does this happen? It's tolerated. Guild racks full = more members active = more fun guild. But at the cost of RP.

In my opinion, it may be worthwhile if guild-wizards stepped in and "coached" leadership. Take pride in your creation/charge. Don't need to hold hands, but it may not be the worst thing ever to gently guide/suggest ways they can improve. I'm all for mortals figuring things out, but in a lot of guilds the leaders are untouchable except in extreme circumstances. I know in Krynn guilds there are ways to overthrow leadership, but let's be honest, some people just don't want the burden of responsibility. Maybe if the existing and willing leaders were trained/helped things wouldn't necessarily spiral downward. Just a thought.

+1

arcon wrote:

Manglor wrote:Kiara, as usual I agree with you.

In one line: RP has fallen by the wayside because it's been allowed to.

With respect to RP: As a Manager (believe it or not) the theory of "You get the behaviour you tolerate." is inscribed into my brain. When it comes to roleplaying, guild applications, culture and general attitudes, you get the behaviour you tolerate. If it was socially unacceptable to team with players who don't RP, we wouldn't do it. No one would team with that guy "who doesn't RP because it's not interactive enough and against the spirit of the game"

Bring back the Actor's Club. Reward those who successfully contribute to RP. If you can't punish those who choose not to RP (other than not letting them into your guild/teaming with them) then reward those who do RP.

Guild Applications: It starts with active guild leadership that is invested in the guild not only succeeding in growth, gear-hoarding, etc. but the overall vision. We can all name a few guilds off the top of our heads that have shaky leadership at best. No need to name names, but when we think of those guilds, a lot of how we perceive the overall guild is based on the leaders. "Oh it's a great guild except it's run by XYZ."

Guild members: How many of you think of someone when you hear the line "Ugh I can't stand so-and-so in my guild but they definitely know how to eq-hunt so I'll deal with their lack of RP/politeness/etc." Why does this happen? It's tolerated. Guild racks full = more members active = more fun guild. But at the cost of RP.

In my opinion, it may be worthwhile if guild-wizards stepped in and "coached" leadership. Take pride in your creation/charge. Don't need to hold hands, but it may not be the worst thing ever to gently guide/suggest ways they can improve. I'm all for mortals figuring things out, but in a lot of guilds the leaders are untouchable except in extreme circumstances. I know in Krynn guilds there are ways to overthrow leadership, but let's be honest, some people just don't want the burden of responsibility. Maybe if the existing and willing leaders were trained/helped things wouldn't necessarily spiral downward. Just a thought.

+1

+1.

RP is very important to me and I think it makes a huge difference in game interactions.

Windemere

Manglor wrote:Kiara, as usual I agree with you.

In one line: RP has fallen by the wayside because it's been allowed to.

With respect to RP: As a Manager (believe it or not) the theory of "You get the behaviour you tolerate." is inscribed into my brain. When it comes to roleplaying, guild applications, culture and general attitudes, you get the behaviour you tolerate. If it was socially unacceptable to team with players who don't RP, we wouldn't do it. No one would team with that guy "who doesn't RP because it's not interactive enough and against the spirit of the game"

Bring back the Actor's Club. Reward those who successfully contribute to RP. If you can't punish those who choose not to RP (other than not letting them into your guild/teaming with them) then reward those who do RP.

Guild Applications: It starts with active guild leadership that is invested in the guild not only succeeding in growth, gear-hoarding, etc. but the overall vision. We can all name a few guilds off the top of our heads that have shaky leadership at best. No need to name names, but when we think of those guilds, a lot of how we perceive the overall guild is based on the leaders. "Oh it's a great guild except it's run by XYZ."

Guild members: How many of you think of someone when you hear the line "Ugh I can't stand so-and-so in my guild but they definitely know how to eq-hunt so I'll deal with their lack of RP/politeness/etc." Why does this happen? It's tolerated. Guild racks full = more members active = more fun guild. But at the cost of RP.

In my opinion, it may be worthwhile if guild-wizards stepped in and "coached" leadership. Take pride in your creation/charge. Don't need to hold hands, but it may not be the worst thing ever to gently guide/suggest ways they can improve. I'm all for mortals figuring things out, but in a lot of guilds the leaders are untouchable except in extreme circumstances. I know in Krynn guilds there are ways to overthrow leadership, but let's be honest, some people just don't want the burden of responsibility. Maybe if the existing and willing leaders were trained/helped things wouldn't necessarily spiral downward. Just a thought.

+1

As a side note, however:

Manglor wrote:I know in Krynn guilds there are ways to overthrow leadership

This is only a half truth. The way to overthrow leadership is based on activity, which is easily avoided by the leadership by logging in once every 2 weeks for 4 seconds. Yes, it is technically it is possible to overthrow them, but it's based on a silly, outdated system. For sake of not derailing this thread, I'll leave it there. As far as RP goes, I think guilds would benefit greatly from having leadership that enforces it. I think there are ways the wizards could help with that ... but it would involve a ton of work.

Anyway, to reiterate, +1