Genesis Forums

Mersereau wrote:One thought from someone who's long gone and probably you think their opinion doesn't matter.

A guild can be as powerful as it likes, up to the point they make a mockery of PVP. (Who cares about PVE, if it's not effecting you so why should you care.) Give a guild any power it likes, but once that guild starts abusing that power to the direct detriment of the playerbase and the guild leaders refuse to police the matter, the wizards have a duty to step in. One of the biggest things that plagued Genesis wasn't a power a guild was given, it was the abuse of that power and the unwillingness to fix things afterwards.

I couldnt disagree more. I am not even sure if you are serious or if its some type of irony or mockery or something? But I'll treat it as a serious until told otherwise.

Giving out great powers and then expecting players to not use them sounds to me like a recipe for disaster. If someone gives me a guild-hoopak that kills trolls in two hits I plan to use it. Why shouldnt I? It would feel pretty silly to be a in a guild with some great (taxed) abilities that you dont dare use, because if you do they'll be taken away. Then it's more or less like you dont have them anyway? Why should I have a super-hoopak if I cant use it anyway? And why do I pay tax for it when I dont even dare use it more than a few times a year at best?

No... design balanced abilities please... and let players use them as much as they want as long as it is within the game rule boundaries. Anything else would be silly. And if it's been that way in the past, dont repeat that mistake again then!:)

Celephias wrote:

Laurel wrote:

Celephias wrote:I think ...

Kas wrote:I think ...

I think as well.

I think MM players should not post about MM power/usability/spells/perks/etc. - your opinions are even more biased than the rest of us' ;p

Which is exactly why the argument needs input from people who actually know what they're talking about versus the speculative drivel of people who are biased in the other direction.

When it comes down to using the new MM spells, perks and abilities to their full extent ... those people don't post on this board afaik.

Kiara wrote:I couldnt disagree more. I am not even sure if you are serious or if its some type of irony or mockery or something? But I'll treat it as a serious until told otherwise.

Giving out great powers and then expecting players to not use them sounds to me like a recipe for disaster. If someone gives me a guild-hoopak that kills trolls in two hits I plan to use it. Why shouldnt I? It would feel pretty silly to be a in a guild with some great (taxed) abilities that you dont dare use, because if you do they'll be taken away. Then it's more or less like you dont have them anyway? Why should I have a super-hoopak if I cant use it anyway? And why do I pay tax for it when I dont even dare use it more than a few times a year at best?

No... design balanced abilities please... and let players use them as much as they want as long as it is within the game rule boundaries. Anything else would be silly. And if it's been that way in the past, dont repeat that mistake again then!:)

If MM were allowed to play like Vampires, they'd have been nerfed hard/deleted years ago. Since NONE of you know the self-policing policies of the Tower, don't pretend to know what lengths people have to go to to be in the 'kill order' zone. And woe to he that kills someone without more-than-just-cause.

But as per your logic, that doesn't matter. The ABILITY to kill is all that matters. Makes........perfect........sense?

Manglor: So you also believe in the "self-police" thing?

Well what can I say. It is in my opinion a very bad system, and if we still have a guild that has to restrain themselves and NOT use their powerful abilities, beacause if the do, they risk deletion, then I think this recode has failed very badly.

Please Gorboth, say you dont also believe in giving guilds huge powers they have to keep secret to not get deleted? I just cant believe any of our current wizards would actually believe in such a system. So I am choosing to believe that it is no longer the case. If mages in the past worked that way, well, thats too bad for them, and everyone else. Hopefully thats fixed now. And vampires... and any other guild who were expected to use self restraint on their abilities...

Manglor wrote: But as per your logic, that doesn't matter. The ABILITY to kill is all that matters. Makes........perfect........sense?

Yes, I think guilds should be balanced on the ABILITIIES they have. No matter if they chose to use them or not. Of course I do. It does make perfect sense. That's how almost all games work. What you're saying makes no sense at all. How would you factor in rules the players decide for their guilds into balancing?

You mean since monks have a rule that says no pfighting unless in self defence, they can get more powerful abilities? So if they decide to remove that rule, they should be rebalanced and be weaker? How on earth would such a system work in reality?

Kiara wrote:Manglor: So you also believe in the "self-police" thing?

Well what can I say. It is in my opinion a very bad system, and if we still have a guild that has to restrain themselves and NOT use their powerful abilities, beacause if the do, they risk deletion, then I think this recode has failed very badly.

Please Gorboth, say you dont also believe in giving guilds huge powers they have to keep secret to not get deleted? I just cant believe any of our current wizards would actually believe in such a system. So I am choosing to believe that is no longer the case. If mages in the past worked that way, well, thats too bad for them, and everyone else. Hopefully thats fixed now.

I think guilds should be balanced on the ABILITIIES they have. No matter if the chose to use them or not. Of course I do. It does make perfect sense. What you're saying makes no sense at all. How would you factor in rules any player picks for their guilds, into balancing? So since monks have a rule that says no pfighting unless in self defence, they can get more powerful abilities? So if they decide to remove that rule, they should be rebalanced? How on earth would such a system work in reality?

I didn't say deletion. It's about direction from the King. If a Mage steps out of line, he's punished. The Eye directs its gaze in very few circumstances...deviation from foes under direct order risks punishment from within.

Mages have always had abilities above the "norm" -- I'm not naive. What's kept them powerful and 'whole' is the ability to stay their hands, save against those who deserve it. What you propose is against the theme of the guild. Why should Mages attack anyone they choose? That makes no sense. Their hunt is for the One Ring. If a random player gets in the way and earns the dark gaze of the Eye, they are dealt with and we move on.

Most guilds have very strict policies on whom they can and can't attack. Why should a powerful guild with stricter rules and is held to a much, much higher standard not be allowed to be stronger?

Laurel wrote: When it comes down to using the new MM spells, perks and abilities to their full extent ... those people don't post on this board afaik.

Hahahaha - The participation (or lack thereof) on this board of anyone else from the guild doesn't make any of the negative rubbish posted any more correct though, right?

I'm amazed by the varied opinions here and that this thread hasn't devolved into a flame fest. Kudos!

Here are my comments from having read through most of the thread:

• Eowul referenced my post about resistance. That's a good place to start with mage balance. Short summary: resistance for spells == armour for weapons.
• Magic layman guilds will be receiving resistance spells, so resistance will become much more common.
• Imbuements have made it much easier to find resistance and/or apply it to items. One thought on making resistance much more common is to increase the frequency of resistance imbuement drops. Thoughts on this?
• Monsters are going to continue to be adjusted for resistance (for PvE) as appropriate.
• Resistance items will become more common as we complete the magic guilds.
• Most of the complaints about casters have to do with the fact that they can double shield, which gives them an advantage when going into full magic burst mode. Shields should be changed. It's very high on the priority list.
• We (wizards) really do appreciate the feedback on the guild overhaul process. Even if we don't always say it, we do appreciate how passionate players are about it. It's what makes creating worth it. If no one cared, this thread wouldn't be this long.

Now... where is that nerf bat?

Manglor wrote:
I didn't say deletion. It's about direction from the King. If a Mage steps out of line, he's punished. The Eye directs its gaze in very few circumstances...deviation from foes under direct order risks punishment from within.

Mages have always had abilities above the "norm" -- I'm not naive. What's kept them powerful and 'whole' is the ability to stay their hands, save against those who deserve it. What you propose is against the theme of the guild. Why should Mages attack anyone they choose? That makes no sense. Their hunt is for the One Ring. If a random player gets in the way and earns the dark gaze of the Eye, they are dealt with and we move on.

Most guilds have very strict policies on whom they can and can't attack. Why should a powerful guild with stricter rules and is held to a much, much higher standard not be allowed to be stronger?

I did not mean deletion for the players when I said deletion, I mean deletion as in closure of the entire guild for potentially abusing superior powers. Your words was that mages had avoided this fate because they had strict rules on when to use their powers. So that was what I was referring to there. Maybe was a bit unclear, sorry for the confusion. Anyway...

I dont think a guild should be more powerful based on the rules of the guild. If some rules or other drawbacks are hardcoded into the guild, so you had some serious coded drawback for great powers, absolutely. But basing guild power on how players act is in my opinion a very hard thing to do. As with most guild players change frequently, and so does the guild leaders. Most of the guilds in Genesis has had very different policies on PVP during the years, sometime being very violent, and sometimes not. Mages are actually an exception to this since they are one of the few guilds that has stayed very similar for many many years. RP-wise mages shouldnt go around attacking just anyone, but thats up to the players in the guild to decide. What if a new generation of PVP-hungry Nazguls would take over? Then we'd have a big problem, if we have a guild with superior powers, and "irresponsible" players in it. (hypothetically). I see your point better now, but I still think it's a very dangerous way to balance things.

And you say high RP standards and strict rules could justify greater power. Well again, such things are player controlled and generally change. There's guilds now that are more or less "walk up and join", with very little RP, that in the past had very strict rules and very high RP standards. So balancing things on how hard it is to get into a guild, RP standards and guild rules is a dangerous path I think. Especially long term, if guild rules and polices change over time, which they usually do. Mages in Genesis is more of an exception really, as most other guilds have been pretty dynamic over the years, and have changed quite a bit depending on the players in the guild, and who's leading, and their ideas about the guild.

Speaking of dynamic, this topic is dynamic!:)

Thanks for those replies Petros. Sounds promising.

Just add some more PVP tools to more guilds and maybe we will see some of those new resistances used to something else than just escaping mages as well. Going on a mage-hunt would be something new and exciting in Genesis!:)

What I find interesting is that just a few weeks ago people were complaining about how Irk, a Neidar, has managed to amass such great size and power that he is unkillable and can kill anything. Now here we are talking about how unbalanced the Mages are and that they are unkillable and can kill anything.

I still think that people do not really know what the Mages can or cannot do and are basing the entire imbalanced PVP off no real information but pure speculation.

It's like being shown a box and being told that inside the box there is a device that can turn lead into gold. Everyone freaks out because that would destabilize the world markets and cause a crash. There is one person who claims to have seen gold be taken from the box and so everyone goes nuts and tries to shut it down. In reality the box only has one piece of gold in it that someone is breaking bits off of.

That may be a convoluted example, but it is what people are doing here. They are attacking the abilities and powers of a guild without actually knowing what they are and what they do. It is a very ineffective way to criticize something or to offer constructive feedback.

I am all for the conversation about PvP balance. I would suggest that people focus on what they know are certainties and leave out speculation. Otherwise you are having a pointless conversation because your ideas may not even be necessary/feasible.

On option would be to remove PvP from the game and make PvP zones where people are buffed in stats (for equality) as they enter and have tasks/goals to accomplish similar to warzones in current MMORPGs. Would that be better? I don't know.

Another suggestion from the board a while ago was a PvP switch. Turn it on and you agree to participate, turn it off and you don't. There are possibilities for abuse, but that could be worked out if it was an idea people wanted to pursue.

Another option would be to create a set of PvP skills for each guild that are different and far more cookie cutter than their PvE abilities. This would allow for Balancing of these while still allowing the uniqueness of a guild in PvE/Team play.

One final suggestion that may alleviate issues with PvP is another that has been suggested numerous times and that is to change the penalty when killed by a player to something different that makes it more fun.

I don't know if I personally like any of these ideas. They are merely suggestions to get us off the speculative/no-information Mage-bashing fest and into something a bit more concrete.

Windemere

Kiara wrote:

Manglor wrote:
I didn't say deletion. It's about direction from the King. If a Mage steps out of line, he's punished. The Eye directs its gaze in very few circumstances...deviation from foes under direct order risks punishment from within.

Mages have always had abilities above the "norm" -- I'm not naive. What's kept them powerful and 'whole' is the ability to stay their hands, save against those who deserve it. What you propose is against the theme of the guild. Why should Mages attack anyone they choose? That makes no sense. Their hunt is for the One Ring. If a random player gets in the way and earns the dark gaze of the Eye, they are dealt with and we move on.

Most guilds have very strict policies on whom they can and can't attack. Why should a powerful guild with stricter rules and is held to a much, much higher standard not be allowed to be stronger?

I did not mean deletion for the players when I said deletion, I mean deletion as in closure of the entire guild for potentially abusing superior powers. Your words was that mages had avoided this fate because they had strict rules on when to use their powers. So that was what I was referring to there. Maybe was a bit unclear, sorry for the confusion. Anyway...

I dont think a guild should be more powerful based on the rules of the guild. If some rules or other drawbacks are hardcoded into the guild, so you had some serious coded drawback for great powers, absolutely. But basing guild power on how players act is in my opinion a very hard thing to do. As with most guild players change frequently, and so does the guild leaders. Most of the guilds in Genesis has had very different policies on PVP during the years, sometime being very violent, and sometimes not. Mages are actually an exception to this since they are one of the few guilds that has stayed very similar for many many years. RP-wise mages shouldnt go around attacking just anyone, but thats up to the players in the guild to decide. What if a new generation of PVP-hungry Nazguls would take over? Then we'd have a big problem, if we have a guild with superior powers, and "irresponsible" players in it. (hypothetically). I see your point better now, but I still think it's a very dangerous way to balance things.

And you say high RP standards and strict rules could justify greater power. Well again, such things are player controlled and generally change. There's guilds now that are more or less "walk up and join", with very little RP, that in the past had very strict rules and very high RP standards. So balancing things on how hard it is to get into a guild, RP standards and guild rules is a dangerous path I think. Especially long term, if guild rules and polices change over time, which they usually do. Mages in Genesis is more of an exception really, as most other guilds have been pretty dynamic over the years, and have changed quite a bit depending on the players in the guild, and who's leading, and their ideas about the guild.

Speaking of dynamic, this topic is dynamic!:)

Thanks for those replies Petros. Sounds promising.

Just add some more PVP tools to more guilds and maybe we will see some of those new resistances used to something else than just escaping mages as well. Going on a mage-hunt would be something new and exciting in Genesis!:)

Why do you think the mages are an exception?
I think it is perfectly valid that a guild that has very strong rules and forces its members to keep a certain level of rp to have more power. They must of course enforce the rules. And they know that the moment they would stop there would be a review of their powerful abilities. See it as a reward for keeping a higher standard then others. And if people feel it is not fair because they can not reach that standard themself, so what? The game is not fair, life is not fair and the fantasy books Genesis is based on are not fair.
If a a nazgul would go on a killing spree and the rest of the nazguls wouldn't do anything about it, how long do you think they would keep their pwerful spells? They showed that they couldn't be trusted with those tools, just like the vampires. I believe that if the coven would have kept a low profile and a very low body count they would still be around now.

So yes I think there should be guilds with more power then othersbased on rp, rules and theme. But they should also know that if they step out of line they would regret it.

I do believe that those guilds should have a restricted membership. With very few members. Not everyone should be able to join or sooner or later someone with abuse the power.