So how bad is...

[Alorrana]

So, all people been saying that Angmar layman is better than Angmar occupational, if this is true isnt it something that needs looking in to, not to ruin a good layman, but wouldnt people rather have a good occupational, and a layman thats a bit weaker, isnt that the deal ?

Why is the Layman so much better than the OCC part ? I have never served the laymans, and I love beeing AA full time, but is smack and smash better or what,? or dos it just work ekstremely well with the Mercs and free weapon choise.?

It just made me wonder. why people would rather be in the layman than in the OCC part.?

[Cherek]

If you ask me I dont think they should have a layman. To me being a DA/AA is like being a Knight/Calian or Neidar/Ranger something. I think these types of guilds are clearly occupational organizations that require dedication and order to work. Having a bunch of layman members who prioritize their occupational guild doesnt work... and Alorranas complaints kinda proves that.

Now if mercs had a layman and occ option that would work, since mercs dont have a council, ranks or superiors to order them around and they dont have a common cause etc.

[Rhaegar]

@ Alorrana: I believe that the root of the problem here is that specials offered by AA are just too good for a layman option and it is usually better to be a member of an occ guild that has relatively high damage output like BDA or Glads and join AA for this extra punch.
I mean, with high 2h combat you can use a club in the off-hand and just smash with it, or go tank mode and shield smack the crap out of anything. The latter being preferable as you get all the nice bonuses of having a shield and still increase your damage output.

@ Cherek: I agree. If the guild has an "Army" in the name it's not really something you can do part-time, can you? There's also the question of placing your loyalties (some of you probably remember the fuss that arose when Pirates were first introduced and they incorporated DA's, Neidar, Calians etc.). Wars between guilds aren't as common as they used to be, but what in a case such a thing happens? Is the member of say BDA/AA going to get thrown out of AA, BDA or both after being accused of being a spy and a traitor?

My 2cc:

1. Army can't be layman (that goes for any army).
2. Layman guilds should be scrutinized more thoroughly when judging their power level or else we're gonna get more OCC guilds posing as LAY (Necromances in the past and now AA). The only alternate I see to that is opening a LAY branch for all the major OCC guilds, not giving them any skills but sup guru training in the OCC guild special. I'm sure mercs would love them some swarm and move behind, brawling can come handy too.

Edit:
Or better yet. Strip guilds of all their trainable specials and instead create a place where you could choose one special for your OCC slot and one for your LAY slot from the pool of all available specials from all guilds.
Fair for everyone.

[Makfly]

... (some of you probably remember the fuss that arose when Pirates were first introduced and they incorporated DA's, Neidar, Calians etc.).

Actually when the Pirates were introduced they did not accept DA members, which pissed off some DAs who went out and killed the Pirates they could catch. The thought being that the forces of Takhisis is (currently) the law of the land, and well, pirates being pirates.

On the Lay vs OCC AA, isn't it just a problem of the OCC branch being over-nerfed last time they got "balanced"?
Lay AA is good in some combination, but there are other good Layman guilds out there too, that can compare I think. So instead of coming up with something that requires a lot of code, why not just improve the OCC branch a notch?

[OgreToyBoy]

Not many layman guilds can compete with the pure damage AA can dish out with smash.
Add to that a shield block skill that can be used at the same time makes them somewhat uber
Comparing with Templars, their special sucks in comparision and if I'm to dodge it sucks even more.

[Laurel]

To me being a DA/AA is like being a Knight/Calian or Neidar/Ranger something.

but but but ...

[Ilrahil]

A few things to note on the thread.

AA laymen for the shield smash is great, but smash with a club is weak for laymen members. At least for DA/AA combo. For a mercenary it would probably be quite good, but the laymen section of AA only offers superior journeyman club skill which leaves you with very few good clubs to use.

Also the shield block is a different story as its hardcoded into the guild. I assume with that you mean cover. Focus on defence and shieldsmash cannot be used at the same time. I know the only DA/AA member that I know of at the moment did not join the guild for the extra damage but mainly for the extra tanking power.

AA occupational was to powerful when opened, in came the nerfbat, and as per usual the guild got reduced to a shade of its former self. The laymen branch did not suffer these nerfs as heavily or as much so they seem significantly more powerful. I would say shieldbearers, Pirates, Necromancers, and probably even thornlin have near to the same firepower as that laymen guild.

[Alexi]

A few things to note on the thread.

AA laymen for the shield smash is great, but smash with a club is weak for laymen members. At least for DA/AA combo. For a mercenary it would probably be quite good, but the laymen section of AA only offers superior journeyman club skill which leaves you with very few good clubs to use.

Also the shield block is a different story as its hardcoded into the guild. I assume with that you mean cover. Focus on defence and shieldsmash cannot be used at the same time. I know the only DA/AA member that I know of at the moment did not join the guild for the extra damage but mainly for the extra tanking power.

AA occupational was to powerful when opened, in came the nerfbat, and as per usual the guild got reduced to a shade of its former self. The laymen branch did not suffer these nerfs as heavily or as much so they seem significantly more powerful. I would say shieldbearers, Pirates, Necromancers, and probably even thornlin have near to the same firepower as that laymen guild.

Ilrahil's right here. As a DO/AA I went Angmarian besides the fact I am fond of the guild from 93-94 era, but because I knew it was a defense layman. I could of went pirate, which has a weak offensive special, and a good defensive special, but decided to go with Angmar because I am always holding a shield. Now as for the offensive ability (Smack) being worth a shit, well all I can say is "its there". Even using that instead of focusing on defence it still takes me 10-15 minutes to kill something. Granted I can tank my butt off, but I knew the offensive downgrade I was going into when I chose AA over Minotaurs of the BloodSea.

Angmarian Layman is IMO the equivilant to Shieldbearers without the layman stun. I doubt that the layman smack does the same damage as the occupational but its a great layman choice for those who wish to fullfill the "tank" role of the team.

[Chanele]

DA/AA wins over DA/Mino, So yes AA layman is pretty nasty.

[Laurel]

Angmarian Layman is IMO the equivilant to Shieldbearers without the layman stun.

you have no idea ... but I'm not quite in the mood to write a detailed (and mechanic) description why your statement is far from true

edit:
changed my mind - bored at work let's do it George Carlin style

SB you say ... so who can join SB again? short races ... yes, yes and what do short races have in common in Genesis? hmmm, let's see - drawbacks in combat stats! hmmm, let's go on - what could a special be dependant on? 2 things - chance to hit and dmg, right? yes, yes and what bonus does a dwarf have for a chance to hit with the usual dwarf dex? surely there is a comparison of the dwarf's chance to hit vs the opponent's chance to avoid (dex/ac/skills/whatever)? surely ... dwarves aren't the best example for chance to hit and they will be best example for dmg ... but wait, wouldn't it be the same dmg a goblin can dish out if it's based on str? ahh crap - surely dwarf players are masochists compared to goblin players ...

let's move on - chance to hit of short races ... hmmm, there's only hobbit and gnome left - surely they both can hit more often (hobbit even WAY more often) than a dwarf but ... what is it good for, if they don't even leave a bruise on a greenhorne with that? (I should have a log somewhere with a shieldslam NOT killing a rat in Sparkle) and compared to the dmg of a dwarf or goblin ... no, no - that's not the best way to go
so all in one - a goblin SB should be THE win - YES! true by far ... but they are "not applicable" for such a setup ... too bad

btw. I didn't even touch the specifics of "number of specials fired within a period of time", the additional "cover" AA has, the possibility to focus on def, the possibility to defend a teammate, the possibility to just drop your shield and use a special from the same layman with 2 weapons wielded instead ... ahh and while at it: any special executed with a weapon would probably be reliant on the weapon skill (aside from the special skill of course) ... there is no "shield" skill in Genesis