Need for a change

[Cherek]

Great post Targun. I completely agree.

About scaling down I think it sounds like a good idea. Sure, some people might leave, but question is how many leaves with the current way of things? More or less? Who knows. I think it sounds more fun with more of a challenge again. However, and thats a big however, what keeps players from growing back to the same sizes pretty soon again? And when they do? Then what? Scale down _again_? Gotta solve the core of the problem too.

Chanele, how do you mean the small people would suffer the most?

What Gorboth said about how he wants spells to work sounds imho exactly like it should be. And it would make INT (and maybe WIS too?) actually matter, which would also make some races more useful, and human and goblin may not be the best for everything... which would be good. Because races are pretty imbalanced right now.

[Alexi]

Scaling down:
The smallest will 'suffer' the least. In fact it would close the gap a bit between small guys and big guys. The myth of avr [numbers are wiz-info] would get to [numbers are wiz-info]. The whatever lvl it is of avr [numbers are wiz-info] would get to [numbers are wiz-info]. The % difference stays the same. Big guy remains 200% stronger than the small guy, but there is [numbers are wiz-info] instead of [numbers are wiz-info] points between them. Besides if new myth is from [numbers are wiz-info] points, you cannot grind past that at very fast pace. While the smaller guy can cath up a little bit. A newcomer could probably start to actually 'play' the game after a 1,5 year right now. We could add a one or two titles for the heavy grinders to get them something to do for the next 3 or 4 years. They wouldn't get past the old legens so the sizes would remain in range, when the game mechanics can work for small/avr/huge guys. They have troubles to do so now.

The problem I see with dropping all of the super large myths is one is going to feel like punishment to them. They've worked really hard, put in really long hours to get to the point where they can tackle extremely hard NPCS (This is Fantasy world, where they're are hero's who can slay dragons mind you) and now you wish to scale them back down to a 140 stat-ave and make them gather teams to what they used to be able to accomplish. Unless you scale back the NPCS, you are going to cause discontent and I think do harm to the game where you thought it was actually benefitting it.

Secondly I don't think Genesis should follow WoW (And I'm not talking the holy trinity). Making Genesis "easy" or "for the casual gamer" will also do harm to the game I think. Rewards should always = Time + Effort. If the population goes towards the easy route then what's the point really? This game has had a dedicated population for over 20 years? Granted the numbers have dwindled but I could count past 10 of the number of people I met back in 93-94. Don't force out the old, or make it so they feel forced out of the game "they know" just so you can "hope" to gain new ones.

[Laurel]

3-4 raid evenings per week, 8-11PM with a 15 min. break ... focus all the time

If you weren't part of the 3 or 4 super guilds that got endorsements to play you were just a casual gamer.

3-4*3hours full focus on the screen = casual gaming? I'm sorry - I have a slightly different definition of that ... casual WoW gamers to me are ppl who pop in now and then for a casual 5'er or 5'er epic or some quick (below 30min of combat) 10/25'er, or those who login for 1-1.5h to get some quick battleground/arena going
when I started WoW, Tive was already a casual WoW gamer - poping in now and then for the casual fun in battlegrounds/arenas

Time:
Um, sorry but how much time do you have on your hands Laurel? More than 2-3 hours? It's not enough? You want people to stay online for what... 10? Only few would play such WoW? How many people paly Geneis? 35 at peak, 4 are wizards, 5 are idling, 5 are semi-idling, 4 are idling in teams with assists on, 4 are LD, 13 people play?

my playstyle changed by far over the years and I usually lack even 45min of a straight session focused on the screen
this leaves me with tough game choices
League of Legends - 5'mans are sometimes too long (1h+), 3'mans are much better (ca. 20-30min)
SC2 - some modes are too long - the new SOtIS is quick enough (20-30min)
BFBC2 - good game for me (for the focus/required time/easy to finalize ratio) - gameplay between 5min and 2h depending completely on my preferences
the times are given from login till any/some sort of "feeling of accomplishment"

Gen is quite a way off my road and so is WoW raiding, WoW as a whole (even most 5's take longer than 30min from login->team gather->finished) or Aion (I simply got bored with gathering another gazilion of monkey anuses)

now - how far from the Gen-target-market am I as a gamer?

btw. when Laurel was old champion in the old system she usually wore a scale, wielded a cleaver and half-moon axe and was QUITE happy with that gear (no helmet, greaves, cloak)
in today's Gen standards she would get nowhere with such attitude, not to mention PvP

Don't force out the old, or make it so they feel forced out of the game "they know" just so you can "hope" to gain new ones.

thus I wrote in the entry to my other note:

scale down playerchars (...) WITHOUT an increased playerbase on hand you get either

1. bot/seconds/multilog/script teams
or
2. players (...) would be forced to lower their standards or even effectively stop going out = leave

strangely enough we agree

[Makfly]

The problem I see with dropping all of the super large myths is one is going to feel like punishment to them. They've worked really hard, put in really long hours to get to the point where they can tackle extremely hard NPCS (This is Fantasy world, where they're are hero's who can slay dragons mind you) and now you wish to scale them back down to a [numbers are wiz-info] stat-ave and make them gather teams to what they used to be able to accomplish. Unless you scale back the NPCS, you are going to cause discontent and I think do harm to the game where you thought it was actually benefitting it.

Secondly I don't think Genesis should follow WoW (And I'm not talking the holy trinity). Making Genesis "easy" or "for the casual gamer" will also do harm to the game I think. Rewards should always = Time + Effort.

The parts I bolded above is something I see pop up every now and then - Which is sort of strange, because many of the people that write this, also complains about botting.
Is growing big in Genesis actually "Really hard work"?
Does Genesis actually pay out rewards based on Time + Effort?

I don't think so. Tagging along with a team, on triggers or scripts requires time but little to no effort.
I don't understand why grinding in Genesis can be considered "hard work" either. You, yourself established earlier on that it's nice that Genesis does not require your full attention. I agree. You can play Genesis while watching a movie and you'll still be paying more attention than many who have grown super huge in Genesis already.

Personally I think Genesis can be stressful, but that's certainly not when doing endless grinding sessions. Trying to stay alive through a Morgul Mage apprenticehood is requires a lot more attention and "work"*, than anything that have to do with gaining huge stats.

So bottom line, I simply do not agree with the notion that having huge stats in Genesis is something that needs to be recognized as "hard work" and should never be tampered with.

If the population goes towards the easy route then what's the point really? This game has had a dedicated population for over 20 years? Granted the numbers have dwindled but I could count past 10 of the number of people I met back in 93-94. Don't force out the old, or make it so they feel forced out of the game "they know" just so you can "hope" to gain new ones.

I would say that the goal of the game should be to stay alive and preferably become revitalized, not stay loyal to a small group of people that potentially block for an influx of new players.
In a perfect world, you want to keep the old guard AND bring in a lot of new players, of course...

*I still have difficulties classifying playing a computer game as work. It's entertainment, and if it feels like a second job, people needs to quit the game and find another hobby that is actually entertaining and doesn't feel like work.

[Alexi]

The problem I see with dropping all of the super large myths is one is going to feel like punishment to them. They've worked really hard, put in really long hours to get to the point where they can tackle extremely hard NPCS (This is Fantasy world, where they're are hero's who can slay dragons mind you) and now you wish to scale them back down to a [numbers are wiz-info] stat-ave and make them gather teams to what they used to be able to accomplish. Unless you scale back the NPCS, you are going to cause discontent and I think do harm to the game where you thought it was actually benefitting it.

Secondly I don't think Genesis should follow WoW (And I'm not talking the holy trinity). Making Genesis "easy" or "for the casual gamer" will also do harm to the game I think. Rewards should always = Time + Effort.

The parts I bolded above is something I see pop up every now and then - Which is sort of strange, because many of the people that write this, also complains about botting.
Is growing big in Genesis actually "Really hard work"?
Does Genesis actually pay out rewards based on Time + Effort?

I don't think so. Tagging along with a team, on triggers or scripts requires time but little to no effort.
I don't understand why grinding in Genesis can be considered "hard work" either. You, yourself established earlier on that it's nice that Genesis does not require your full attention. I agree. You can play Genesis while watching a movie and you'll still be paying more attention than many who have grown super huge in Genesis already.

Personally I think Genesis can be stressful, but that's certainly not when doing endless grinding sessions. Trying to stay alive through a Morgul Mage apprenticehood is requires a lot more attention and "work"*, than anything that have to do with gaining huge stats.

So bottom line, I simply do not agree with the notion that having huge stats in Genesis is something that needs to be recognized as "hard work" and should never be tampered with.

If the population goes towards the easy route then what's the point really? This game has had a dedicated population for over 20 years? Granted the numbers have dwindled but I could count past 10 of the number of people I met back in 93-94. Don't force out the old, or make it so they feel forced out of the game "they know" just so you can "hope" to gain new ones.

I would say that the goal of the game should be to stay alive and preferably become revitalized, not stay loyal to a small group of people that potentially block for an influx of new players.
In a perfect world, you want to keep the old guard AND bring in a lot of new players, of course...

*I still have difficulties classifying playing a computer game as work. It's entertainment, and if it feels like a second job, people needs to quit the game and find another hobby that is actually entertaining and doesn't feel like work.

Going to disagree with you Mort. It is difficult to obtain the top end of Player size-base. Several factors have lead to the abundance of "large" players.

A) When General XP was implemented, it actually LOWERED brute for a while, and people took full advantage of this herbing they're butts off so they could drop their brute at very large sizes (We are talking a few brute levels).

B) When old quests were re-introduced many players actually were able to go back and re-do old quests (but with the cap now, that kind of solved the issue) but it still helped many people grow.

Also I think you are generalizing thinking everyone who is big, just scripts, or auto-assists all the way to [numbers are wiz-info] stat-averages.

I also don't think that having large players in the realms blocks new players. You don't jump into WoW as a level 85 with high level-items on your character. You work for it, you play, grind quests, kill until you've reached level 85, then you try and find a successful guild that progresses, then you raid X hours a day on a weekly schedule to get the gear for your character. Afterwards you have fun by jumping into battlegrounds and trouncing players because you out gear them, and have worked hard for that opportunity.

Sound familar? It is. Freya or Poet didn't grind all the way up to their size just for shits and giggles. They did it because when they go into a conflict with another guild or want to PvP with other players they want that size edge that will make them successful.

This is just me, but if you play more then I do, and get bigger and have a better guild cause you took the time to app through a hard apprenticeship (Mages) you SHOULD kick my ass if we PvP against each other.

Work + Time = Reward.

[Rhaegar]

Actually, I prefer the Guild Wars model to WoW one any day. You have much less levels (20), you don't really need to grind to get them. There are 3 campaigns where you can start, each at a different pace with the fastest one taking you to level 18-20 before you even leave "tutorial island" and begin the campaign proper.
It's fun because you can get to the top fast and that's where some real fun begins, hunting materials for your armours (the idea of armours and weapons being capped is also great in my opinion, when you're maxed it doesn't matter if your armour/weapons come from the regular vendor or some super duper elite Fissure of Woe stuff that depends on too many things to obtain - it costs a shitton of uber rare materials and cash, the team from your region must win a GvG battle in a hall of heroes or the path won't open etc. etc.), finding skills for your character to use etc.

What gen needs is a quick and easy progression to highest levels (like it was with the old champ) and majority of content designed for this group, not spread evenly across the board.
If everything would be designed/tweaked with myths in mind (damage modifiers, items, npcs, quests) it would make for a properly balanced game as no one would really give a shit if you could or couldn't do something at hero level. Pre-myth levels working as an extended tutorial of sorts, where you learn some more advanced techniques, not where you spend most of your life.

[Makfly]

[...] Work + Time = Reward.

I do know WoW pretty well, as I've done the whole day-1 of release, server-first raiding circus. For as much as I liked WoW it certainly has its flaws, but one of the big things WoW have going for it is accessability. Some might call it making the game easy or casual, but it certainly is in stark contrast to Genesis, which of course is part of the reason why WoW have 12 million subscribers and Genesis has a peak pop of 35 people. Gorboth have focused on this before and seems to be on the right track with making the game more accessible for the gamers that does not have many hours available to play in one session, and generally making it more accessible.

WoW also suffers from a greatly skewed population, where it popularly said that the game begins at 85 (60-70-80 in the past). To be honest many other MMOs suffered from it before as well.
What they have done to combat the problem, is to make it easier and easier and easier to reach max level.
Genesis though, have not made it easier. In contrast Genesis have had the goal-posts continue to move further and further away, which can greatly discouraging for players who didn't get in on the gravy-train and now see that they will never reach the same level as the biggest players, or at best reach it in years, if that big player stops grinding.

In terms of WoW battlegrounds they have recognized their mistake in letting people do exactly what you describe and made it so raid-gear isn't all that great in PvP, to try and alleviate this imbalance of raiders coming in and beating the snot out of everyone else - not because they are good at PvP, but because they gained gear from raids.
In Genesis such an imbalance would impact the game a lot more though, as Genesis is FFA PvP.
Freya and Poet are free to go around and kill ANYONE they want, at ANYTIME - and really, chances are there is little you can do about it. We have seen this time and time again in the past.
That is not a healthy environment for people to play in, unless you are one of the few on the top of pile.
Some initiatives have been done to alleviate the problem, by lowering the penalty for death, but I think it's still a very real problem. Good thing is though, that such a small population as we see now, are masking it. But the next big PvP controversy will probably open that big can of worms right up again

But that's not what we were talking about initially anyways. Back to your point - I do agree that some players with huge stats didn't just grind, but also did quests and gathered herbs once.
Still I'd claim that much of the time was spent grinding, AFK/semi-AFK/scripting/triggering/whatever.
That's a big investment of time for sure. But it is not a big investment of effort.

That was my main point - hope the ramblings made sense.

[Alexi]

Point taken, and it did make some sense.

But lets face the facts. WoW is a spiffy MMORPG that has all the bells and whistles because the company who created it had Billions of dollars. Genesis had one smart cookie of a college student (Lars) who came up with a cool idea that took hold of a certain group of people who still play the game.

Genesis can't be WoW, ever. Not the same concept behind the game. Genesis can adapt some of the things that make WoW a popular game, but the majority of kids (lets face it all of us are getting older, and I started the game at 16ish) aren't going to go "Holy Hell that's a cool video game". They are going to laugh their Ambercombie and Fitch off when you tell them you play by reading words!!!!


Mudders are a select group of individuals (usually geeks or computer nerds) who like the concept of the game, probably like to code some, or are huge fantasy buffs (Even the Fantasy Genre is going downhill as Wizards of the Coast seems to be producing less and less novels anymore which breaks my heart).


The only reason I say "Watch what you wish for" in terms of catering to all is you are going to end up losing even MORE people when they get disgruntled because you've taken 20ish years worth of work on their toon and make it easy-pease for the next guy who might only stay a year playing at best. I think the "talent pool" to take a Wow-Term is drying up for the population of mudders.

[Freya]

Ehm, this topic was not meant to discuss a stat change really...


Perhaps a wizard could step in and split the thread up?


While on the subject though, how many myths have gone on killing rampages ?

Also, all this talk of a statnerf is coming from 2 players, Mort and Cherek, what about
the rest of the game? Just seems foolish to talk about making such a big change when there's really only 2 people who are passionate and want to see it implemented?


As for scripting, I can honestly say that I do not script/use leader triggers for any of my chars, I am always 100% at the computer no matter what.


I have to ask though, why would a statchange make such a big diffrence to you Mort/Cherek?

Would it make you want to play more if you knew you could reach the top lvl in a months gaming?


I think your fooling yourselves if you think a statchange/stat cap would make such a big diffrence, only diffrence I see is that it would lose 90% of the myth polulation, and most like a big chunk of the legends out there.

[Chanele]

What we need is more players and I belive many of our problems would be solved. When I started out I was a very violent adventurer for months maybe even a year. Back then there were also big myths (champions) who everyone gasped at and we all wished to be as cool as them. Did that discourage me to continue playing? Not at all. With the huge population we had back then size did not matter much you could still have fun. The thrill of being invited and hunt with them did my day.

I bet most of the grinders out there would start playing the game differently if there was a population of 60+ and they actually get people to interact with.