Neidar Clan

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Laurel

Re: Neidar Clan

Post by Laurel » 20 Oct 2014 22:09

Greneth wrote:we let Rangers become Necromancers. Aragon was one!
was my point since Necros opened ...

if Calians don't care for Gen-technical align outside of Calia (and they don't, as shown by many), why would Neidar care for Gen-technical align when dealing with guilds from outside Krynn? double standards is all it is

Greneth

Re: Neidar Clan

Post by Greneth » 20 Oct 2014 22:43

Laurel wrote:
Greneth wrote:we let Rangers become Necromancers. Aragon was one!
was my point since Necros opened ...

if Calians don't care for Gen-technical align outside of Calia (and they don't, as shown by many), why would Neidar care for Gen-technical align when dealing with guilds from outside Krynn? double standards is all it is
Because Neidar Lore is different.

Neidars have rules and regulations to follow the biggest is having nothing but utter hatred for Goblin or kin. Therefore you cannot expect any guild which harbors said creatures to be viewed with anything but disgust by a Neidar.

Calians are nothing but a group of Mercs they didn't fight for good or evil but to survive. The only mystery is whom Caliana received her magical powers from. Could be a good god or a gopheroo. But that would be the only thing to which Calians might be considered good aligned.

Windemere
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Re: Neidar Clan

Post by Windemere » 20 Oct 2014 23:29

Greneth wrote:
Laurel wrote:
Greneth wrote:we let Rangers become Necromancers. Aragon was one!
was my point since Necros opened ...

if Calians don't care for Gen-technical align outside of Calia (and they don't, as shown by many), why would Neidar care for Gen-technical align when dealing with guilds from outside Krynn? double standards is all it is
Because Neidar Lore is different.

Neidars have rules and regulations to follow the biggest is having nothing but utter hatred for Goblin or kin. Therefore you cannot expect any guild which harbors said creatures to be viewed with anything but disgust by a Neidar.

Calians are nothing but a group of Mercs they didn't fight for good or evil but to survive. The only mystery is whom Caliana received her magical powers from. Could be a good god or a gopheroo. But that would be the only thing to which Calians might be considered good aligned.
You should go and read the Calian Lore. You're a bit off base with who they are. They rose up against Tyranny. Against an evil General of the Kroug Army. Again, I'd go read the lore, there are many reasons why they are and should be good aligned.

As for Necros and Rangers, the Necromancers in Genesis are FAR different than what you're trying to pass off as Aragon for Necro. He never toyed with the dead to bring them to life. He met ghosts and convinced them to uphold an ancient oath they had forsaken. WAY different then Necromancers who practice a pseudo science of learning how to reverse and/or avoid death through magic and research.

Greneth

Re: Neidar Clan

Post by Greneth » 21 Oct 2014 01:59

Windemere wrote:
You should go and read the Calian Lore. You're a bit off base with who they are. They rose up against Tyranny. Against an evil General of the Kroug Army. Again, I'd go read the lore, there are many reasons why they are and should be good aligned.

Most annoying thing is when someone tells you your wrong when in actuality you are quite right. So because me just saying I'm right obviously won't work let's break down the lore that I obviously need to brush up on according to you.

How did this all begin? It began in whats called the First Conflagration the Quartan upon Kroug's return noticed Dark Magic about him, note that he had not done a single thing to any of them as of yet. They planned an accidental death to which he found out about to which he retaliated.

This is how it all began, with the leaders of a racist nation plotting to kill someone who had not done any harm to them because they felt threatened. Which said leaders and followers mostly ended up joining Caliana. But let's keep going.

Next is when Caliana first becomes a Warlord, that sounds super good aligned. She fought alongside the the Warlord Masthron, now you might say she had no choice but... ask a Knight if the choice between death or fighting for Takhisis was available which they would choose? Hm? Going on, the first major battle was against the Hobbit Warlord Bacco. Why did this start? Because Masthron ordered it, land, power etc. How many innocent hobbits were slain by the "Wolf Pack" during this battle?

Lets move on to the first battle with Kroug or the "Dark Traveler", while wary of him they dine for the night and Kroug asks her to join and offers her his sword. Caliana who was going to offer up her lance refuses when Kroug will not give up his name. So some random guy feeds you then wont tell you his name, yeah I'd ignore him too. But heres the thing, Caliana was friendly and willing to trade weapons. Now going back to the beginning... when Kroug first arrived it was said even a Goblin could sense the Dark Magic. A stupid goblin can sense it but an entire Wolf Pack and Caliana herself cannot? Or she could sense it and did not care as long as they were not threatened.

Caliana later is confronted and begged to rescue someone, originally she didn't want anything to do with the rescue. Definitely good aligned mentality there. Now she goes and slays Krougs men, making her a definite enemy now.

Later, they trespass on Hucker's territory and fight with them. Thats always nice, trespass then bloodshed.

Now I'm going to skip ahead a bit, the "Calians" have been formed in the palace where Caliana cares little for the guilds daily activities and focuses on power by studying ancient scriptures. The next battle is with Hucker. The dwarf whom when trespassing they fought with the first time. Whom is now defending his home from both Kroug and Caliana. Right... very... heroic...

Last to survive was the Warlord Oslewt, this is when whats called the "Second Conflagration" where both Kroug and Caliana were vying for control of the territory held by Oslewt. Yes cause sometimes they good Hero's cant seem to rid themselves of their Evil Warlord mentality.

The War Council when first devised was set up to have one of each race, but the warriors still held onto their racist ways and preferred to stay within their own groupd. Which Caliana had no problems with. Later seeing how it screwed her she then decides to get rid of it.

I'm going to copy this so you can understand it fully, because this is what a Calian should be.

14.7.3 The Warriors would be responsible for the elimination of rogue
krougs and the suppression of any aggression by one community against another.

14.7.4 The Warriors would only engage in combat within a community's
borders under two conditions:

14.7.4.1 They were attacked.

14.7.4.2 Their help was requested by the local government.

So, in conclusion. The Calian Warriors are NOT righteous. Once again, they are a group of mercenaries whose Warlords pissed off Kroug and began this whole shit storm. They are not good aligned, they killed and took others land which was designated to said people long before Caliana was even born just so they could be more powerful then Kroug. They merely became the Protectors by being stronger then everyone else and asserting dominance over Gelan which became the wealthiest hub due to it's location.

They do not need to have any part of any other random crap that happens in any other realm. Their main priority is Calia, it's people and killing Kroug. They did not form to rise up against Kroug, they formed long before Kroug was an issue and formed to avoid the Goblin Warlord Masthron. Once they became a threat THEN Kroug set his sights on them.

Last but not least, you need to go read the Lore and keep that stupid Alliance mentality crap out of it. Telling me to is like a high school student telling a mathematician to check his math problem. The lore contradicts the guilds requirements, hence why most Calians have said screw it and do what they want.

Windemere
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Re: Neidar Clan

Post by Windemere » 21 Oct 2014 03:48

It's not the most annoying thing, actually :P

And you are missing some components of the story. I'm not going to go into in public on the forum because some of it has to do with what you learn in seeking to be a member of the Elemental Worshippers and the Spirit Circle (but you should be able to find it pretty easily in the libraries and in Thalassia by looking around),the are pieces that tell more of the story of who the Krougs were and what their actions were towards the people of Calia that might put it more in perspective. Needless to say they were Tyrants and were not good people.

Also curious where you got that. is it written in the Calian libary. I'm not privy to that, but not my understand as a SCOP of Calian lore (and technically our history is before Calians existed). Thanks for copying it (from somewhere) I wouldn't want to get confused....

I appreciate you have a lot of the history and knowledge in your head/on paper but you don't have/know everything about the lore of the realms.

We are off topic of this thread, but I still disagree with you. So if you want to keep chatting about it, you can PM me and we can. What we all do have to accept, on topic, is that Wizards painstakingly create guilds that fit criteria based on lore (which the coder of the Calians created mind you, it's 100% original) and we should respect the limitations they have put on the guilds as far in as it fits the lore (which for the most part they do). It's when you get into layman/occ guild combos that I find there is a lot of inconsistencies in people's RP.

Greneth

Re: Neidar Clan

Post by Greneth » 21 Oct 2014 04:25

Windemere wrote:It's not the most annoying thing, actually :P

And you are missing some components of the story. I'm not going to go into in public on the forum because some of it has to do with what you learn in seeking to be a member of the Elemental Worshippers and the Spirit Circle (but you should be able to find it pretty easily in the libraries and in Thalassia by looking around),the are pieces that tell more of the story of who the Krougs were and what their actions were towards the people of Calia that might put it more in perspective. Needless to say they were Tyrants and were not good people.

I appreciate you have a lot of the history and knowledge in your head/on paper but you don't have/know everything about the lore of the realms.

We are off topic of this thread, but I still disagree with you. So if you want to keep chatting about it, you can PM me and we can. What we all do have to accept, on topic, is that Wizards painstakingly create guilds that fit criteria based on lore (which the coder of the Calians created mind you, it's 100% original) and we should respect the limitations they have put on the guilds as far in as it fits the lore (which for the most part they do). It's when you get into layman/occ guild combos that I find there is a lot of inconsistencies in people's RP.
Been there done that, doesnt matter about the Kroug and what they've done. It's about the Calians and the actions of how the Calians came to be which proves the point of they should not be good aligned. The Kroug are a minor part, which is some half assed way of saying... let's make the Calians good aligned because the Kroug are evil! But sure i'd be more then happy to discuss lore with you.

Which circles back to the original topic of the Neidar, if a Neidar wanted to kill elves in Qualinesti... and the Thane has declared war on them then there is no issue. Alignment should not play a part in skills.

What everyone seems to be forgetting is time is stopped in the realms, we don't move forward. Therefore anything that happens past that point is completely up to the players and should not be dictated by what we know as the future of the realm. Certain Guilds should of course be hard coded good or evil aligned, but there are some that should be looked at. You could easily point at the Ogres and say that the mindless killing they are required to do and harvesting of skulls while following dark masters would never allow for them to be good aligned. Yet they are not hard coded that way.

Windemere
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Re: Neidar Clan

Post by Windemere » 21 Oct 2014 05:06

Anyone can argue anything, does it mean it makes sense, is logical, or fits the RP of the race/guild? Not always.

Genesis is full of inconsistencies, however, we are always expected to work within the framework that the Wizards who coded the guild have laid out.

I do not believe that Neidar should be able to use their abilities when evil based on Lore. They would be kicked out of Neidar first if they were actually RPing neidar. If we want to have a guild that's called the Neidar Clan but isn't actually the Neidar Clan, fine do that, but it will not be based on the lore from which they were coded.

Hektor
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Re: Neidar Clan

Post by Hektor » 21 Oct 2014 09:29

Greneth, you are missing several and very essential points on how Caliana was chosen, who and what chose her, how the Palace came to be. What Kroug did, what magic he used, and who transgressed first in some cases. It seems almost as if you are picking parts of the Chronicles to fit your idea rather than looking at all the references everywhere.

Calia was a land in civil war, Caliana rose as a slave who became a warlord yes, but she became something more. If you pick the events that suit your story and if you judge every minor act the Calians took in their struggle with that discourse and following apply the same template to all other guilds in Genesis then every guild has points in their history where they take actions for "the greater good or greater evil" that may be considered circumspect at best - and in all cases the D&D alignment system is a spectrum with fixed milestones, but not absolutes for fixed points of stasis - I consider them a dynamic guideline.

That said - I think there are many references as to why the Calians are good aligned and to a deeper background of the battle between Caliana and Kroug (I will not add a transformer - more than meets the eye, but oh look I did). I would agree too that they lean far more toward neutral than would a Ranger or a Knight.

As for a Neidar being evil, if there is a fixed system of rules that say Neidar should be neutral or on the good side of neutral then I think it is fine with some form of hardcode supporting this. I will agree with Irk though that being able to do new interesting things within these boundaries - such as Neidar joining evil guilds that fit their neutral perspective is a very good thing.

I am all for a bloodguard knight if the bloodguard was able to be hidden and then player interaction took care (Conclaven saying no) of the infraction when found out - just as long as some things that are divine mandates cannot coincide and the Gods or what not would prevent it from happening. Such as a Psuchae Cleric joining the layman Necromancers - he would simply not be allowed to continue as a Cleric - the Elementals would intervene immediately (there is already hardcode for the Elementals intervening on some things).

Well Im rambling now...

Just my 2 ccs
Lawful evil - conform or die.

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Irk
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Re: Neidar Clan

Post by Irk » 21 Oct 2014 11:12

WTF? Since when this is Calian topic? Create your own topic and spam there about Calians :x

Chanele
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Re: Neidar Clan

Post by Chanele » 21 Oct 2014 11:20

Is this topic about Irk wishes to expand his xp grounds?

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