Dragonarmy revisited

[nils]

Let me walk you through my typical day.

I gear up, read mails, inspect the racks and other miscellaneous and head out. I run and check Garren (indoor), and then I finish off the rebels (indoor). I could opt to kill the neraka trolls (indoor). During which time I would assemble a team through otherworldly communication. I hit the smith in sanction, and use my portal to meet my team in Terel.

We check the usual suspects Eldar (indoor), thief (indoor), Gorg (outdoor – even though we enter a door) and if team is big enough – Mergula (outdoor, weirdly enough). We hit the ghastly keep (indoor) followed by terel trolls (indoor) and dark elves (indoor). Depending on how crowded it is, or if we feel imbues might be luring, we hit either or both Ribos (indoor) or LoD (indoor). At this point, armours need smith again, so we travel to newports. After sharpening and fixing armours we hit Verminaard (indoor), before we hit quali elves (outdoor).

After quali we have a choice – return to Terel (all indoor) or Mithas (outdoor). Depending on how crowded the grinds are we have three more options. We can hit minotaurs in Icewall (mostly indoor), Faerun (outdoor), or with some risk involved, Haradrims (some indoor, some out). Ents are also an option (Outdoor).

Now the Anorien Fort (mostly indoor) is an option, but the creator made them into damage sponges, so at the time it’s not a viable grind. We could also hit the war areas (all outdoor), but even on steeds this is exhausting even for the strongest of us. It results in long pauses for rests (we can’t call fresh steeds), and is such not a viable grind. Tell you the truth, it's the least enjoyable activity I do on genesis - conquering.

You remove damage from the special attack to the dragon and it’s a de facto nerf on grinding.


Now, let’s talk PvP.

So PvP success is measured in seconds. You need that damage quick and painful. Element of surprise, either way. Dragons cannot be summoned outside of combat, so the summoning starts at the attack.
Kill player
Slash load
Summon
*tap*
*tap*
Slash hits
*tap*
*tap*
Target runs
Follow target
Run around
*dragon arrives, ready for strike*
Find target, attack
*target little debuffed because of dragonfear*
*tap*
Slash hits
*tap*
*tap*
Dragon breath hits
Target runs

And oh, this is ofcourse if you’re lucky enough to catch your target outside. If inside.. ah, you get the picture.

Now, Arman, I like the idea of moving damage to make dragons (more) useful. I really do. And I am confident you will find a way to make it scale properly. My reality though? I’m nerfed on the one thing my “apex” guild is good at – dealing damage.

Now I won't whine about how good the goodies are, their caid numbers speak for themselves. The reason we have an upper hand, and probably will after the nerf, isn't due to guild abilities, it's down to size and skill of our members.

[Arman]

Let me walk you through my typical day.

I gear up, read mails, inspect the racks and other miscellaneous and head out. I run and check Garren (indoor), and then I finish off the rebels (indoor). I could opt to kill the neraka trolls (indoor). During which time I would assemble a team through otherworldly communication. I hit the smith in sanction, and use my portal to meet my team in Terel.

We check the usual suspects Eldar (indoor), thief (indoor), Gorg (outdoor – even though we enter a door) and if team is big enough – Mergula (outdoor, weirdly enough). We hit the ghastly keep (indoor) followed by terel trolls (indoor) and dark elves (indoor). Depending on how crowded it is, or if we feel imbues might be luring, we hit either or both Ribos (indoor) or LoD (indoor). At this point, armours need smith again, so we travel to newports. After sharpening and fixing armours we hit Verminaard (indoor), before we hit quali elves (outdoor).

After quali we have a choice – return to Terel (all indoor) or Mithas (outdoor). Depending on how crowded the grinds are we have three more options. We can hit minotaurs in Icewall (mostly indoor), Faerun (outdoor), or with some risk involved, Haradrims (some indoor, some out). Ents are also an option (Outdoor).

Now the Anorien Fort (mostly indoor) is an option, but the creator made them into damage sponges, so at the time it’s not a viable grind. We could also hit the war areas (all outdoor), but even on steeds this is exhausting even for the strongest of us. It results in long pauses for rests (we can’t call fresh steeds), and is such not a viable grind. Tell you the truth, it's the least enjoyable activity I do on genesis - conquering.

You remove damage from the special attack to the dragon and it’s a de facto nerf on grinding.

In this scenario, yep. No argument.

I just want to flag the quantum of the 'nerf' to your slash attack isn't going to stop you from this routine or really slow you down. And with the proposed changes to maximum skill levels for soldiers and officers in sword to allow them to max that skill earlier (currently you can only max out at high officer/general.. where only a restricted number of players can get those ranks), I'd hazard an opinion that for those ranks they probably wouldn't notice any change in damage output. The main change BDA is going to notice is the loss of intimidate.

We could also hit the war areas (all outdoor), but even on steeds this is exhausting even for the strongest of us. It results in long pauses for rests (we can’t call fresh steeds), and is such not a viable grind. Tell you the truth, it's the least enjoyable activity I do on genesis - conquering.

Quick segue - I am glad you mentioned the warfare areas, because that is an area I really want to improve the experience of for all participants. My plan for these areas is zoning them for particular mortal levels, with unique army npcs - so a complete recode of all npcs - and boss spawns at conquest for each area rather than the generic spread you find at the moment. What I am thinking at the moment is:

North Abanasinia is a zone with npcs catering to legend+, defaulting initially in the war as an RDA held territory.
Central Abanasinia is a zone with npcs catering to hero-titan size, defaulting initially in the war to Free People tribesmen npcs
Solace is another zone with npcs catering to hero-titan size, defaulting initially in the war to Free People Seeker templars and fanatics
The Newports area gets expanded into the eastern part of the Qualinesti forest, catering to hero-titan size, defaulting initially in the war to Free People Qualinesti elves
Estwilide is a zone with npcs catering to legend+, defaulting initially in the war as a Neidar held territory.
Nightlund a zone with npcs catering to legend+, defaulting initially in the war as a BDA held territory (including Lord Soth's Reaper Army).
Gaardlund catering to hero-titan size, defaulting initially in the war to Free People Solamnian peasant militia
Throtyl catering to hero-titan size, defaulting initially in the war to the Green Dragon Army
Western Solamnian Plains a zone with npcs catering to legend+, defaulting initially in the war as a Knight held territory.
Icewall a zone with npcs catering to legend+, defaulting initially in the war as a White Dragon Army held territory.

So we are looking at ten zones with npcs that cater to a specific size (5 legend+, 5 hero+), rather than the mismatch of npcs you current have in the warfare zones... as well as some more rewarding content when you conquer an area.

Am curious about the exhaustion issue you flagged. Is that just from moving constantly through large areas looking for enemies? If you have any other ideas on how the experience can be improved, now is the time to raise them too.

Now I won't whine about how good the goodies are, their caid numbers speak for themselves. The reason we have an upper hand, and probably will after the nerf, isn't due to guild abilities, it's down to size and skill of our members.

I'd agree, although there are a few additional reasons... Goblin race, leveraging their physical prowess; Sword skill provides you with the advantage of being able to access some of the best weapons in the game, duel wield or play more defensively by being able to 'sword and board' with shields; more complementary layman guilds such as blademasters and AA.

By comparison RDA are restricted largely to two-handed polearms, of which a number don't do impale damage, and they don't really have as many complementary layman options... and their damage output is really poor in comparison to BDA. That is the primary reason I want to revisit the DAs... I want those two armies, along with the knights, to be very comparable. The knights and BDA (minus intimidate) are around the mark of where i want them to be with a few tweaks... RDA are the primary focus of my changes.

[Amberlee]

Quick segue - I am glad you mentioned the warfare areas, because that is an area I really want to improve the experience of for all participants. My plan for these areas is zoning them for particular mortal levels, with unique army npcs - so a complete recode of all npcs - and boss spawns at conquest for each area rather than the generic spread you find at the moment. What I am thinking at the moment is:

North Abanasinia is a zone with npcs catering to legend+, defaulting initially in the war as an RDA held territory.
Central Abanasinia is a zone with npcs catering to hero-titan size, defaulting initially in the war to Free People tribesmen npcs
Solace is another zone with npcs catering to hero-titan size, defaulting initially in the war to Free People Seeker templars and fanatics
The Newports area gets expanded into the eastern part of the Qualinesti forest, catering to hero-titan size, defaulting initially in the war to Free People Qualinesti elves
Estwilide is a zone with npcs catering to legend+, defaulting initially in the war as a Neidar held territory.
Nightlund a zone with npcs catering to legend+, defaulting initially in the war as a BDA held territory (including Lord Soth's Reaper Army).
Gaardlund catering to hero-titan size, defaulting initially in the war to Free People Solamnian peasant militia
Throtyl catering to hero-titan size, defaulting initially in the war to the Green Dragon Army
Western Solamnian Plains a zone with npcs catering to legend+, defaulting initially in the war as a Knight held territory.
Icewall a zone with npcs catering to legend+, defaulting initially in the war as a White Dragon Army held territory.

So we are looking at ten zones with npcs that cater to a specific size (5 legend+, 5 hero+), rather than the mismatch of npcs you current have in the warfare zones... as well as some more rewarding content when you conquer an area.

The problem here is very large areas and the NPCs being spread over those areas.
Another issue is the wandering officer troops that can suddenly go behind you to an area you have just cleared, so you in fact have to walk through all of it another time.

[Arman]

The problem here is very large areas and the NPCs being spread over those areas.
Another issue is the wandering officer troops that can suddenly go behind you to an area you have just cleared, so you in fact have to walk through all of it another time.

So at the least, no wandering npcs. Check.

[Draugor]

Arman

Two weapons are worthless, just saying, 2 handed weapons are the way to go for damage, 2 weapons should result in faster slashes tbh, atm you have to go for 2 handed weapons to do good damage.

And if you're making BDA only usefull outside (yes thats what will happen) they better make batshit damage with the dragons, cause the dragons atm aare not even layman damage, they are closer to crafts guild damage if they had it, barely that aswell. DA's will be signifigantly nerfed indoors, so they need a signifigant if not gigantic outdoor boost if they are supposed to only be usefull there.

So if we're going to swing the nerfbat, swing it everywhere its needed. Take a look at knight damage compared to tanking and Calians Atleast give the dragonarmies some utility if we're messing around with them, give em a movebehind, its stupit that only the good side has that stuff, as if armies didnt use tactics or formations?

And if we're to take races into account on guild balancing, shouldnt BDA be goblin only if we're balancing after that?

[Melarec]

How about officers are given the ability to band together groups of draconians to team with them and fight for them?
Put it on long cooldown (a few hours?) and higher ranking officers are allotted more draconians at a time.

Fits the army aesthetic. Definitely not a nerf. Useful team mechanic for evils.

"Oh but Mel, NPCs are useless in PvP combat."
A group of ten draconians, even if you killed them one per second, would allow the player controlled characters to overwhelm you rather easily.
Who was it that said PvP was metered in seconds? Right, Nils. Nils, would you say that ten seconds, even five seconds, is enough to kill most players who're alone?

[Arman]

And if we're to take races into account on guild balancing, shouldnt BDA be goblin only if we're balancing after that?

For good or bad - no guild is balanced based on race, weapon type, or potential layman guilds. The discussion had moved from balance on to why Nil's felt BDA has the perceived upper hand.

[Draugor]

And if we're to take races into account on guild balancing, shouldnt BDA be goblin only if we're balancing after that?

For good or bad - no guild is balanced based on race, weapon type, or potential layman guilds. The discussion had moved from balance on to why Nil's felt BDA has the perceived upper hand.

Good good, and as for upper hand... its about size mainly Hell I've been attacking knights and rangers for awhile, rangers disarm and blind me even if they are rather small, knights at titan level actually put a decent hurt on me, taking me down several healthlevels before running, and I'm way bigger than titan, hell hadnt my size and gear been what it is, I'd be sent packing with no doubt.

[nils]

In this scenario, yep. No argument.

Do you picture a realistic scenario where this isn't a nerf? Genesis is not big enough to stick to the outdoor grinds. Don't say war areas, I'll comment more about this further down.

I just want to flag the quantum of the 'nerf' to your slash attack isn't going to stop you from this routine or really slow you down. And with the proposed changes to maximum skill levels for soldiers and officers in sword to allow them to max that skill earlier (currently you can only max out at high officer/general.. where only a restricted number of players can get those ranks), I'd hazard an opinion that for those ranks they probably wouldn't notice any change in damage output. The main change BDA is going to notice is the loss of intimidate.

If you take away our damage and put it into an unusable dragon, mathematics dictate it certainly will slow us down. No matter how you dress it up.

Now, let's talk about what gets removed.

Dishearten/Intimidate
Certainly a part of the caid formula. If it gets removed, then certainly something comes in to replace it?

Awareness
Certainly a handy skill to avoid getting robbed by thieves, do we get something in return for losing it?

Defence adjustments
Anything resembling a nerf here, will we get something in return? If anything, the sum total of adjustments should come in our favour. The dragonarmies are horrible tanks. This is why we do damage. "Apex" guild and all.

If your answer to all of these is "more dragons" I am deeply concerned. Is it your intention to do the same mistake done to the Army of Angmar two decades ago? You have a vision about how the dragonarmies are lorewise and how this translates to Genesis, and this is fine. What becomes a problem is when your vision clouds true sight about what MUST take precedence - gameplay. The dragonarmies are, per your definition, apex guilds. All we really have is our slash. You reduce our slash and you affected gameplay in a negative way. You reduce our effectiveness on over half of the battlefields.

I've heard some rumours about definitions and parameters for "elite guilds" and the current slash falls as is within these. You reduce our slash' caid and it can no longer be "elite", forcing you to add a higher miss chance too. Is this your intention? Claiming that "you have almost the same caid", but in truth do 1/3 of the damage left in form of holes in the air?

War areas
You have presented nice ideas concerning the war areas and "catering" to certain sizes is in a visionary's view proper thinking. Let's take it down to reality.

Today's war areas are spaced out with "rooms" that, similar to ME, have a high exhaustion rate. Probably to give a feeling of distance. In reality this translates to a lot of waiting around. Poor game design, really. Nobody likes to wait.

In addition, the knights are "bad exp" compared to how difficult they are to slay. I theorize that this is because they are fully armoured, but this translates to a reality where a single legend BDA has a really hard time without darkness and darkvision.

A typical scenario is I lead a band of three to raid a plain. We start in a corner and work our way, zig-zag'ing the plain and kill everything (scripted, ofcourse - anything else would be inefficient, adding to the frustration). It's a lot of running and suddenly, one team member without steed falls behind. We have to backtrack. On the way back, a second one gets the dreaded "You are too tired to move in that direction."-message and chaos has ensued. Maybe you'll change it. That would be a true improvement!

Speaking of killing everything. In order to keep up with the areas controlled, we would have to kill the ones catered for smaller players too. End result? A lot of running around for "shit exp", making the whole war system an even more frustrating and hateful chore, taking away time from the grind in areas that are "good exp".

I like the ideas of "rewards" after clearing. See the ghastly keep in Terel for inspiration. Simple, effective, rewarding. And the mobs are "good xp".

I'd agree, although there are a few additional reasons... Goblin race, leveraging their physical prowess; Sword skill provides you with the advantage of being able to access some of the best weapons in the game, duel wield or play more defensively by being able to 'sword and board' with shields; more complementary layman guilds such as blademasters and AA.

Now surely no guild is balanced based on race.

Dual wield - Now that is interesting!
You said yourself you've been gone for a decade, and maybe you haven't played the game at all since your return. I don't know. I urge you to check the active BDA's and see how many of them dual wield swords these days. This was an advantageous design before the global change in rules that govern weapon stats in one hand versus two hands. Since this rule has been enforced, you will only find a dual wielding BDA killing centaurs - for no other reason than that they break two handed weapons.

Big BDA's will use a two handed sword. You say they are many, I say they are few, so few I can list them here:
Flaming black broadsword (Hard to get, though!)
Sword of Mergula
Gigantic steel broadsword (40kgs!!)
Rust-red from Raumdor
Jet-black war-sword
In a pinch, dark silver longsword, draconian claymore and foul-stygion sword (30+ kgs!!) are options, but sub-par to the abovementioned.

Now the other option is "sword and board", and being the "designated tank", I tell you - my team mates outdamage me threefold in return for the little but neccessary effect the shield provides and my highly neccessary defensive layman.

RDA isn't any more restricted in this matter than we are. Now I'm not very well versed in polearms, but a "designated tank" would opt to use either the tempered spear, complex medicine stick, some spear from Sybarus I never remember the desc for and probably a few more.

In addition, there are quite a few of these two-handed polearms that do not dull. Great, if you use polearms. Only non-dulling sword is the flaming black broadsword (Again, pretty hard to get without angering an already pretty angry bunch), and I can name at least three non-dulling poles with a much lower difficulty aquiring.

So no, the weapons available aren't a balancing issue or a reason for our "perceived upper hand". In fact, I'd welcome you to remove two handed combat in its entirety, and gives us the caid in form of a better slash, crowd control, tank rotation et al.

Complementing guilds
The BDA/AA-combo doesn't work as good as you might think. They don't marry well. I know, I've tried it.
Blademasters, yes. They provide a very good synergy with BDA, and amount to a lot compared to other layman options. Here I can't really help myself: The realm as a whole has been screaming for "weaponmasters" for the better part of a decade. A -very- simple recode of an existing guild that nobody but certain purists *nudge gorboth* would complain about, that would fix this problem.

Now, back to slash and dragons. Since we're on about laymans.
I don't like allocating anything from my special. Everyone I've spoken to agree, this is a nerf, a bad idea, could destroy BDA, no true option for evils. Certain conspiratory individuals say that the game caters more and more to the "goodies", but I won't go into that discussion. Nobody wants slash nerfed. I haven't heard a goodie saying it's a good idea either.

A better option?
Remove dragons completely, allocate whatever caid is put into the dragons to slash. Then, make your outdoor dragons into an optional layman. This way, everybody wins. You get your dragons, we keep our slash. I have a few ideas for the layman and further use of the dragons, but that's for another time.

TL;DR
Please don't nerf slash. Make dragons an optional layman.

Nils

[Arman]

I'll have a think about it Nils.

What I might start off doing is implementing the changes to the RDA and see if their quality of life improves to the point where they met my intention with the re-balancing... that they are comparable with the knights and BDA. If I find their quality of life makes them equally attractive a guild as BDA then I may not need to make further changes that impacts slash.

Intimidate will still go. So whatever way you look at it, there will be some element of a nerf.

As for getting rid of dragons, sure I could do that. But then they wouldn't be the dragonarmies. If i was to go down that path now of creating the guild from scratch, HOW I'd do that is make the entire guild layman, and you'd need to sign up as a free mercenary. But that isn't going to happen