Guilds of Genesis

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Arman
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Re: Guilds of Genesis

Post by Arman » 19 Jul 2018 14:23

Dhez wrote:
Arman wrote: I am not sure what you mean on your point about the Morgul Mages, although they fit within the principles of magic guilds outlined above as well as combat aid limits. Having said that, as someone who remembers what the original Morgul Mages were, I don't really like the recode. Morgul Mages are on my radar for a recode... and I am talking blank slate recode in collaboration with the guild leadership. Discussions have commenced, but don't expect anything soon... rangers have priority before MMs.

Agree with you re: Dragonarmies and the singular weapon option use. I hope to address that issue when I release the recode of the Krynn warfare system. As i've flagged in my yearly update as liege of Krynn, the warfare system is something I think is very important to reinvigorate, and was my focus post opening of the WoHS.
What I see here happening for a few years now is a very active and dedicated wizard willing to take on an immense amount of work onto himself both code and lorewise, with a bunch of other responsibilities on top of that. We're talking about code no one has wanted to do, ever. He's giving explanations of his actions, examples, and agreeing on the well made points we make. We're seeing more unbiased wizard activity in one person than we have seen in a while, and when bombarded with the usual complaints he's being very civil and open where he could just say "Deal with it", as other wizards have done in the past. All of it for free. So, I'd really suggest building up on that relationship and trying to work with him here. Trust the changes a bit and if there are issues then they should be reported in a more or less civil manner. I certainly don't understand half of these changes nor do I agree with every one he has made, but I recognize quality code being done here, and a solid, even if improvable, reasoning behind it. As a human, there are things he might overlook or seems to have overlooked, and that's something we can definitely focus on. All I'm saying is that the current team of active wizards for the last few years have been doing a lot of work that has long been awaited. If we try to get as much done as possible and work out the kinks as a community, we might just be able to get what the community has wanted for a long time: options, lore rich guilds, a degree of transparency, more communication, less nepotism, more immersion, a ranger recode, etc.

While I do see the reason why people are upset over some things, I just want to take a moment and thank the current team for the quality work they're putting out. I'd love to know more about what currently is being worked on and what is on the to-do list, though. I don't think many people were aware of the changes to the heralds, and I wonder what else is being worked on. By no means should the current wizards spend more time informing and less working. It's their passion that's driving them to work on their projects, but a short informal update is always appreciated, and also: if you would point out the best way of receiving feedback on the changes, which I believe is in-game mail but you're welcome to correct me, that would also be appreciated. Community perception of things may improve with knowledge of internal guild mechanics but we also want to keep some things secret, and I'd rather leave it up to the creators to find a balance they are comfortable with.

EDIT: I focused on Arman on the beginning of this note because it's written in haste (at a slightly elevated pace), but it of course includes Nerull, Jaacar, and the other faceless heroes in the sky.
Thanks Dhez. Myself and most of the wizard population don't expect acknowledgement or praise or anything like that... we code as a creative outlet and because we love the game.

I get that people are invested in the game and can get very passionate about a particular point of view, and that can spill out in their posts. And there have been times I have felt like going all "Ad Hominem" (as Amberlee flags), especially after a few whiskeys and when people make statements of certainty from a position of ignorance, but I try not to. At the end of the day if the comments aren't constructive I can just ignore them... afterall, I am the one in the position of creating and balancing :).

And I will always take constructive and civil commentary seriously.

Speaking of, Heralds should be able to dismount now without their hortale spell dispelling. Heralds, let me know if it creates any unintended bugs.

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Arman
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Re: Guilds of Genesis

Post by Arman » 19 Jul 2018 15:03

Dhez wrote: I'd love to know more about what currently is being worked on and what is on the to-do list, though. I don't think many people were aware of the changes to the heralds, and I wonder what else is being worked on.
There are a few irons in the fire... but progress on a lot of them are very dependent on the activity of the responsible wizard/s.

At a global level, we want all guilds using the standardised special system... and we have been progressing quite well towards that. Rangers, monks, minstrels are the remaining ones needing transitioning over.

Ckrik has been working on the monks for a while now, although RL has really limited his ability to progress it. Also, the nature of how unarmed works in the game makes it underwhelming as a guild focus when moved in to the standardised system... so the recode needs to be a bit more creative to get a good player experience. Shanoga has offered to help progress it, so hopefully we may get some progression on that front... although I am not prepared to put any ETA out there.

Rangers guild recode is one I want to work on after I have finished seeding spells for the WoHS and revamping of the Krynn warfare system. I understand why the rangers guild hasn't been recoded... it is going to be a big job, one which will need the engagement of the ranger leadership to come up with a working concept that stays true to not just thematics but its historic legacy in the game. It is very much at a whiteboarding stage... again, no ETA.

Minstrels could be so much better. While a conversion of its existing code to the new system could be done, in my mind they should be recoded to really provide a bardic experience. That isn't on the cards at the moment.

Nerull is going to potentially be looking in to moving towards alignment quest parity.

A new area in Kalad has been created. I need to review it.

WoHS have soft launched after 14 months of beta testing. There are still some spells to seed (which does involve the creation of new area content in a lot of cases), but it is a pretty cool guild if I do say so myself :). For those that hate slow progression through the ranks, it isn't for you :).

The Krynn warfare system. There are a few things I am going to do with it. Firstly I am going to open it up to allow broader participation. Those outside of the warfare system currently will be able to align themselves to a particular force... whether it be one of the five Dragonarmies, the Free People, the Knights or the Neidar... and fight for that faction. Metrics of your involvement will be measured.... killing and conquering. Apart from allowing for 'leader boards', it will also you to be able to unlock useful 'stuff' as participation rewards. This part has been coded... although the metrics measure kills based on npcs that aren't seeded yet.

The most time consuming element of the revamp though is a recode of all the npcs that are involved in the warfare system. Right now, the areas are a jumble of npcs of different sizes, varying quality equipment and specials. Warfare npcs are going to be roughly standardised to be equal across the factions, and conquest areas zoned for specific mortal levels. Each area will have thematically appropriate npcs for each faction... so we are talking about a lot of unique npcs and equipment. It will be time consuming to create, but I think worth it.

There are a couple of apprenticeship projects as well in varying stages of creation.

There is probably some other stuff going on that i am not across... but that should give you some idea of what is in the works.

Syrk
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Re: Guilds of Genesis

Post by Syrk » 19 Jul 2018 17:34

In the last few months and especially weeks we got two new layman magic guilds.
Order of the Stars and Warlocks. Also one occ+layman magic guild (Wizards of High Sorcery). Recode of Heralds. Halflings racial.
I also heard that Thanar race guild was recoded and new content is coming to lands of Kalad.
The only thing that lately went MIA is Beastmasters.

Before that there were changes, upgrades to Dragon Armies, Thieves, PoTs, Secret Society... And that is what is visible to everyone. There must be more going on behind the curtain.

I do not recall such influx of new content, so many remakes of older stuff in such a short time. So it is awesome. I think wizards are doing great job.

Greneth
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Re: Guilds of Genesis

Post by Greneth » 19 Jul 2018 17:49

Sorry, lore and thematics are king. We are a game of narrative, not min/maxxing. There are boundaries which I police... but while we have a Keeper who pushes those boundaries with everything he creates (which I love) that is always going to trump equalisation. Agreed, usability and mechanics are very important... but you have to be understanding that there are 30 year old foundational elements to the game that would be incredibly time consuming (if at all possible) to change. Lengths of weapons vs character race height type? Yeah we get that. There are just some elements of the game that we just have to accept as idiosyncrasies of one of the oldest online games in the world. You can't get bogged down in some of these discrepancies *Arman whispers 'let it go'*.

Now we don't want to dictate roleplay... Genesis is a sandbox. The idea is to facilitate it, with code to support specific roleplay immersion. The Heralds have been changed to a guild that better reflects Tolkien's view on magic in the fourth millennium in the Third Age. The Valar do not influence events directly. Instead of being booted from the guild for killing an eagle or healing someone evil, there is now a corruption element which allows players choice in actions - however potentially negative consequences which impact on spell effectiveness. In fact, the new Heralds recode is heavily influenced by the MERP roleplay material. It is very thematic and true to that. I make no apologies for the new pros and cons... for in my biased opinion it is a vast improvement on what was there previously. Having said that i'll look in to the mounted issue... I can't promise anything as any possible solution is code-messy though.

I am not sure what you mean on your point about the Morgul Mages, although they fit within the principles of magic guilds outlined above as well as combat aid limits. Having said that, as someone who remembers what the original Morgul Mages were, I don't really like the recode. Morgul Mages are on my radar for a recode... and I am talking blank slate recode in collaboration with the guild leadership. Discussions have commenced, but don't expect anything soon... rangers have priority before MMs.

Agree with you re: Dragonarmies and the singular weapon option use. I hope to address that issue when I release the recode of the Krynn warfare system. As i've flagged in my yearly update as liege of Krynn, the warfare system is something I think is very important to reinvigorate, and was my focus post opening of the WoHS.
And that was my whole point, for years and years and years lore is always king. But lore is only king when it fits the narrative of the person using it. Lore wise I can point out dozens upon dozens of core problems that no one seems to have an issue with. Morgul Mages don't exist in ME lore, there are none. It's a made up guild, the games can show all the staff waving orcs they want. There are no "mages" who study and are taught by the Nazgul to do Saurons bidding. In fact im almost positive that the word mage isn't even used in ME lore, they were sorcerers and wizards one of which mortals arent allowed to be. That is mechanics and functionality deployed before lore to work better with the players and game. Lore wise anyone in the game with a torch or enough fire should be able to make a Nazgul run around in fear but we cant have that so lore is bent for mechanics and playability. Magic is so vaguely referenced when it comes to mortals using it that it's basically all open to interpretation.

Obviously we don't want to see lore and thematics completely ignored so someone can reach that max caid. Im the last person who cares about min/maxing, the discord hates my ideas on what I would rather see just because im tired of how big everyone has been allowed to get. Cap everything at Champ I say and ignore the threatening leavers.

Lore plays just as an important role as mechanics and playability. I just think that when you use lore as a reasoning for something that is crushing down on mechanics and playability it begs the question of which is more important. Do you follow the lore to the T or do you make exceptions to make it more enjoyable for the players using it? Far as the Heralds I really don't know what you did, I was merely commenting on the subject of lore vs playability. You could have added a fart spell to the Heralds and it would have been an improvement.

Johnny
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Re: Guilds of Genesis

Post by Johnny » 19 Jul 2018 21:40

I'd consider the mouth of sauron to be a morgul mage.

Raelle
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Re: Guilds of Genesis

Post by Raelle » 19 Jul 2018 22:06

Arman wrote:The Krynn warfare system. There are a few things I am going to do with it. Firstly I am going to open it up to allow broader participation. Those outside of the warfare system currently will be able to align themselves to a particular force... whether it be one of the five Dragonarmies, the Free People, the Knights or the Neidar... and fight for that faction. Metrics of your involvement will be measured.... killing and conquering. Apart from allowing for 'leader boards', it will also you to be able to unlock useful 'stuff' as participation rewards. This part has been coded... although the metrics measure kills based on npcs that aren't seeded yet.

The most time consuming element of the revamp though is a recode of all the npcs that are involved in the warfare system. Right now, the areas are a jumble of npcs of different sizes, varying quality equipment and specials. Warfare npcs are going to be roughly standardised to be equal across the factions, and conquest areas zoned for specific mortal levels. Each area will have thematically appropriate npcs for each faction... so we are talking about a lot of unique npcs and equipment. It will be time consuming to create, but I think worth it.
have I mentioned how excited I am? I'M SO EXCITED (and patient)

Greneth
Wizard
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Re: Guilds of Genesis

Post by Greneth » 19 Jul 2018 23:46

Johnny wrote:I'd consider the mouth of sauron to be a morgul mage.
The only recorded human mortal to use dark "Sorcery" and be called a "Sorcerer" within the tower who learned more and more during his service. The Nazgul in our game have a lot more free will and minds of their own then what they were actually said to have had. Specially if Nazgul wearing rat costumes and parading around Sparkle is anything to go by. So I highly doubt they were the ones doing the teaching originally, but in this case the lore was tweaked to fit the narrative.

You can google Morgul Sorcers, Morgul Magic, Morgul Wizards, just about Morgul anything and something related to the lore of Morguls, Witch-King, Melkor or Sauron will appear. You google Morgul Mages and Genesis is the first thing to pop up.
Additionally, in The Return of the King, it is written that the Mouth of Sauron had practiced "sorcery" under Sauron himself - implying that the Mouth, being merely a Man, could only learn such arts from him.
http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Magic_in_Tolkien_Mythology

Its most definitely semantics but things have been tweaked to fit into the game easier. Im being anal about it because if you're going to say Lore is King while making up groups of people fitting into a hierarchy that was never defined and mis-labeling them while stretching the lore which is highly up to interpretation and by no means the standard... well.

Code: Select all

Dark sorcery, more commonly known as "witchcraft" or "Morgul magic" by the Free People of Middle-earth, was art of practicing dark magic for evil purposes. Famous practitioners of dark sorcery are mostly dark servants of the infamous Dark Lords Melkor and Sauron. Its users, as well as all human practitioners of magic, were called Sorcerers. 
Now the Black Númenóreans were said to have used dark sorcery however which was due to their worship. And not something they innately had.

Code: Select all

These sacrilegious 'black arts' and 'follies', which arose as a consequence of their worship of 'The Dark' and Melkor, marked the final, irrevocable division between the 'King's Men' and the minority known as the 'Faithful' Númenóreans, or the 'Elendili', who kept to their old faith in Ilúvatar. 
So were there a group of mortals who studied dark sorcery within the tower and were taught by Saurons most trusted servants who other than the Witch-King were said to have no real will of their own? Highly unlikely, I can tell you there most certainly weren't Gnomish "Sorcerers" and Rangers though. Which begs the question as to why lore wise the Drow are banned from parts of ME when they don't exist in the lore and why Gnomes which also don't exist are somehow welcomed by both sides.

Again, this is why you cannot use lore as a first source of reasoning in this game. It's a great tool to use as a guide, but there are too many people with too many different interpretations and nothing is concrete and some of it doesn't even make sense. This is because Genesis is a game with multiple lores, you make things playable first and wrap the lore around it to fit properly without being too far-fetched. Least that's what makes the most sense in my mind.

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Mersereau
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Re: Guilds of Genesis

Post by Mersereau » 20 Jul 2018 01:33

Arman wrote:
Greneth wrote:
The issue becomes he has she has and EW set the bar so high that anything else fails to measure up. I look at Warlocks now and it's costing people platinum coins left and right while an EW spell component is extremely common and littered all over the moors right next to their guild hall for the same spell.
If that is the case, and a good case needs to be brought to my attention, then this is something that I will take action to address. For magic guilds, there are a number of key principles that need to be met. I don't know if I have publicly raised it before, but i'll articulate it here so you understand my position:

*** PRINCIPLE 1: The additional combat aid benefit that magic guilds have
*** over other guilds needs to be balanced with appropriate
*** drawbacks.

*** PRINCIPLE 2: At a minimum, magic guilds drawbacks need to
*** take into consideration mana usage, component requirements
*** for their spells, and melee combat vulnerability. These drawbacks
*** are more pronounced for occupational guilds.

*** PRINCIPLE 3: Powerful magic is reserved for occupational magic guilds.
*** Layman guilds are dabbler classes, and are to provide
*** support to an occupation.

*** PRINCIPLE 4: When developing a magic guild the distinction of class
*** needs to be clear. In general, Mage classes are strong
*** offensive with no healing abilities, while clerical
*** classes have access to healing magicks

These are the principles I consider when I build and review magic guilds. The concern you have raised hits on principles 1 and 2. Now, this can be subjective and perception of drawbacks may not be obvious to non-members... members are definitely not going to make them public knowledge! It is part of the mystery of magic. BUT there has to be drawbacks.

If you genuinely think a guild does not align with these principles, put a case forward to me and I will (caveat) investigate. Make it a strong case, for my caveat is if you waste my time I 'red card' you and consider future cases as scuttlebutt. Boy who cried wolf kind of thing.
Greneth wrote: So while I agree with your line of thinking that drawbacks should be in place it's really hard to justify as long as one of the most controversial magical laymans for over the past decade has literally had none. And that's not crying it's just a simple factual comparison.
I love factual comparisons. Especially when I hold all the guild data. Having said that, mortals have an ingenious habit of getting around intended restrictions. So again, bring anything you think breaks the principles i've outlined above to my attention.
Greneth wrote: The other issue is much the same when you use lore as an argument in a game that is not roleplay enforced, has things like Morgul Mages? Dragon Armies that are restricted to one weapon type, Angmar Armies that are tanks which can only move behind other tanks, Gladiators that only know how to use axes, Hobbits tanking Dragons and slaying them with weapons such as Wyrmslayer that is about twice as long as them while wearing a deathplate that somehow now fits them from a giant Death Knight... I mean you can go on and on with the discrepancies. I've no idea what the Heralds get now but I agree with Amberlee, usability and mechanics should always come first and the lore wrapped around it to give it flavor.
Sorry, lore and thematics are king. We are a game of narrative, not min/maxxing. There are boundaries which I police... but while we have a Keeper who pushes those boundaries with everything he creates (which I love) that is always going to trump equalisation. Agreed, usability and mechanics are very important... but you have to be understanding that there are 30 year old foundational elements to the game that would be incredibly time consuming (if at all possible) to change. Lengths of weapons vs character race height type? Yeah we get that. There are just some elements of the game that we just have to accept as idiosyncrasies of one of the oldest online games in the world. You can't get bogged down in some of these discrepancies *Arman whispers 'let it go'*.

Now we don't want to dictate roleplay... Genesis is a sandbox. The idea is to facilitate it, with code to support specific roleplay immersion. The Heralds have been changed to a guild that better reflects Tolkien's view on magic in the fourth millennium in the Third Age. The Valar do not influence events directly. Instead of being booted from the guild for killing an eagle or healing someone evil, there is now a corruption element which allows players choice in actions - however potentially negative consequences which impact on spell effectiveness. In fact, the new Heralds recode is heavily influenced by the MERP roleplay material. It is very thematic and true to that. I make no apologies for the new pros and cons... for in my biased opinion it is a vast improvement on what was there previously. Having said that i'll look in to the mounted issue... I can't promise anything as any possible solution is code-messy though.

I am not sure what you mean on your point about the Morgul Mages, although they fit within the principles of magic guilds outlined above as well as combat aid limits. Having said that, as someone who remembers what the original Morgul Mages were, I don't really like the recode. Morgul Mages are on my radar for a recode... and I am talking blank slate recode in collaboration with the guild leadership. Discussions have commenced, but don't expect anything soon... rangers have priority before MMs.

Agree with you re: Dragonarmies and the singular weapon option use. I hope to address that issue when I release the recode of the Krynn warfare system. As i've flagged in my yearly update as liege of Krynn, the warfare system is something I think is very important to reinvigorate, and was my focus post opening of the WoHS.

I appreciate your candor here, Arman.
"Tragedy is when I cut my finger. Comedy is when you fall into an open sewer and die."
-Mel Brooks

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Luma
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Re: Guilds of Genesis

Post by Luma » 20 Jul 2018 08:31

Arman wrote: WoHS have soft launched after 14 months of beta testing. There are still some spells to seed (which does involve the creation of new area content in a lot of cases), but it is a pretty cool guild if I do say so myself :). For those that hate slow progression through the ranks, it isn't for you :).
:D
*jumps up and down with excitement*

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Berwyn
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Re: Guilds of Genesis

Post by Berwyn » 20 Jul 2018 11:17

Draugor wrote:
Draugor wrote:Ya this thread needs another run tbh :P

Angmar needs a boost btw, ANY kinda boost tbh, cant tank or nuke atm, I outdo em on both as a merc :P
F*** if I know why they cant, Myth AA/necro got my a** handed to be in GK all the time unless I had like 2-3 heavy damage nukers behind me, still got my ass smacked quite well sometimes
Think it was Amb and someone else that did tests as to see who actually did best :P Mercs actually outtanked AA

Compared to Neidar that can do it alot earlier and do comparable/better on goblonoids for damage, would be nice if the evil side had a guild that would excell at tanking aswell

Hell or mercs, sup guru Def+Parry, I still tank like s**** but I do atleast twice the damage :P Even more with the warlock speedspell, its amazing for mattack
Draugor wrote:
Alisa wrote:
Draugor wrote:Ya this thread needs another run tbh :P

Angmar needs a boost btw, ANY kinda boost tbh, cant tank or nuke atm, I outdo em on both as a merc :P
Can it be that the special focuses on AC of said shield, and not coverage?
Shields used in regular combat, coverage plays a larger role than AC.

Can it be the "special" boost from AA isn't greater than the greater effect from higher def/parry from Mercenaries?
I don't know what AA gets, but i see a huge difference between sup master defence and sup guru. It is quite mentionable.
The same can be said for parry.

If an Angmarian uses a defence imbue/defence item, does this boost the shield special as well?
Defence imbue is only for defensive skill so the shieldcover special shouldnt be effected I believe, I'd actually be fine with a minor tweak to it hell as RDA/pirate I was quite easially doing Qualinesti solo with just 2 skunks in me, AA cant do that, take way to much damage cause it takes half the day to kill something :P

Preferably make modes, berserk makes you tank like... well s****, we're talking layman guild defense but more damage, normal mode, well year 50/50 but still better at atleast one of them than now and defensive, should be a noticeable difference wich is not noticed atm if you focus.
I heard that with this new tactic, Angmar's Army has no equals in terms of tanking. Perhaps you should test it with maggots. Besides everyone knows that mercenaries cannibalised their mattack from angmar smash and with their adaptability they can fake to be gurus in defence but in reality they're not :]

b.
"Tis but a scratch" - Black Knight, Monty Python and the Holy Grail

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