Genesis Forums

nils wrote: ↑

05 Jan 2021 23:58

Ah, yes - the thieves..

A once useful layman guild, where if you sacrificed enough money you could steal a flaming sword straight out of a nazgul's hands without it noticing. Sure it was expensive, but it really did make thieves a valuable asset in a team.

Wonder which Buzz Killjoy "fixed" that. He should have a talking to!

Every player who went and whined about how unbalanced it was that someone who sacrified their layman slot get that single ability killed the thieves.
People suck sometimes.

Thieves fell out of popularity when new laymans were opened and most of them offered more power in combat situations. This has been alleviated somewhat with some of the recent updates though.

They could be turned into a craft guild (losing any combat abilities they do have now in the process) but I think this would still make them practically empty and would just make it easier for griefers.

I think that the way forward here is not closing the guild but rather taking it's unique abilities into account when updating old areas or designing new ones - adding some doors and chests without keys that need to be picked, perhaps granting access to some cool new areas (kinda like mariners/pirates/minos give you more access to Bloodsea), some deadly traps that need to be disarmed in the dungeons etc.

It's hard to do that without making it broken (essentially free money or cool items might be abused too much) but I'm sure there can be some middle-ground. I think that the idea of disarming traps is a decent one as it would make thieves valuable and help them fill their team role better and more in line with classic P&P RPGs. This would also help the guild like Tricksters as they also possess some trapfinding abilities.

Put traps in the most grinded areas and suddenly if you want to keep up your fanta/minute ratio you need to bring a thief or a trickster or you face slowdowns, potential poisons etc.

Edit: On this note, I think we should also explore avenues to add more content to the game that is not directly related to combat and give people more possible interactions. Making use of niche skills like hunting or find/remove traps is one way of doing it (also acrobat skill could be used to avoid damage from traps etc.). Right now we're just adding more of the same and adding traps and stuff would instantly make the game more interesting and at the same time make 2 guilds valuable instead of being forgotten without even touching them or introducing some new complex stuff (we already have traps, doors and chests, just not in the right places).

It seems to me that currently thieves are used for combat more than anything else, as half the stuff is unpickable. Cheap shot+backstab with skills increased to occ level is the only way I personally see them being used

Skythus wrote: ↑

06 Jan 2021 23:37

It seems to me that currently thieves are used for combat more than anything else, as half the stuff is unpickable. Cheap shot+backstab with skills increased to occ level is the only way I personally see them being used

Yes, but that's the problem really. Not with the guild itself but rather with the environment it is put into. Right now Genesis is pretty much all about head-on combat. If there were avenues for other activities it would make more sense. I think that if additional elements like traps and more locks to pick were introduced into the game the guild would have more uses (and then I think their backstab could be removed entirely but I'd leave cheap shot as is since it's actually an interesting and unique mechanic).

Sounds cool. A cheap shot to avoid combat and escape, with emphasis on exploration. I support pacifist/craft thieves!

I wanted to turn them into craft in the past but now I think it's a bad idea. I'm now of the stance that they should remain a layman option (as well as Tricksters) but we should put emphasis on making them more viable via external means, rather than internal.

Turning them into craft guilds would remove the choice between combat power and utility. The problem lies not with the guilds but with the world where it favors combat heavily and makes utility redundant and that's what needs to change in my opinion.

We should strive to make the experience a bit closer to classic D&D (what most people understand and expect from RPGs) where your party would rather not enter a dungeon without someone capable of disarming traps and picking locks. It has worked for decades in PnP, it should work for Genesis too.

I fully agree with Zhar. There are guilds out there that just don't fit. Even if you boil down Zhar's post to "poison traps" you make use of thieves, rangers and maybe kender (dodge the arrow? less weight race so you dont activate the pressure plate and can go a couple of rooms ahead to disable it trivially).

If there are grounds to implement it, it is totally the single most important thing to possibly do - make the game deviate from its horrible routine.

The problem is not the thieves abilities rather the asshats that abuse it like the endless incarnations of the notirious sparkle thief known to all.
The one that we do like to play whack-a-mole with.
Another issue is that pick pocket is VASTLY favoured vs awareness.
Sup Guru awareness and a thief has no issues succeeding even with cooldown between attempts.

My most recent idea was to introduce a special system to the thieves:

You can attempt to (successfully or not) steal from other players 3 times within 24 hours. After the third time you receive a warning that you're drawing too much attention to the Cabal. Each subsequent attempt produces another warning. After 2 such additional warnings next attempt will draw the ire of Hiddukel resulting from expulsion from the Cabal, removal of pick pocket adaptations, being unable to execute steal command for the next 24 hours and pick pocket adapt trainer refusing his services until you get back into the guild (which requires a pardon).

TLDR: can attempt to steal from other players 5 times within 24 hours, 6th attempt puts Hiddukel's curse upon you.

Zhar wrote: ↑

16 Jan 2021 12:56

My most recent idea was to introduce a special system to the thieves:

You can attempt to (successfully or not) steal from other players 3 times within 24 hours. After the third time you receive a warning that you're drawing too much attention to the Cabal. Each subsequent attempt produces another warning. After 2 such additional warnings next attempt will draw the ire of Hiddukel resulting from expulsion from the Cabal, removal of pick pocket adaptations, being unable to execute steal command for the next 24 hours and pick pocket adapt trainer refusing his services until you get back into the guild (which requires a pardon).

TLDR: can attempt to steal from other players 5 times within 24 hours, 6th attempt puts Hiddukel's curse upon you.

I dont mind that it is just a 1 minute cooldown or whatever. Gives me plenty of time to deal with the person or move on.
Right now i find the issue to be the "peek" command. Because there is no limit to that, and in the last week or two i have had 20 lines spam of me catching some human trying to pry in my stuff.
And when trying to kill the fucker, he easily runs off before any damage can be done.