Racial stats rebalance

[TaranGoatWalker]

The current system with goblin master race suffering drawbacks in dis, thus meaning that they... can't fight casters as well? It isn't great if you're not a goblin

[Shesara]

I have waited for this post for ages and agree with most of it.

I cannot wrap my head around the need to boost humans, someone please explain to me why that is needed? Just because they have had a relatively low average compared to others for all time, doesn't mean they now have to have an advantage forever.

Another point: Just as an example, how will the race of elves be affected?

Elves have always been a caster race in my head, but they keep getting deducted in a spell-casting-heavy stat: DIS.

But, how will this new DIS reduction compare to before? All prior bonuses will be removed, so elves will drop a lot in INT, a bit in WIS + DEX, and gain STR + CON + DIS, and then the new stats will be applied, increasing WIS and reducing DIS. Is this correct?

The most significant change will come to those with "huge" characters, who have spent years trying to get their stats just right. For me, as a legend/small myth elf, the changes will not be as dramatic, but might actually be fun to play. I should get a small increase in CON + STR (much needed!) and mostly unchanged WIS + DIS. At the cost of INT and DEX.

Overall, I like it - Except for the major drop for Elves and Goblins.
Goblins will go from having the best CON, to being about the lowest. Maybe reconsider what stat they are reduced in?
Elves will go from having the best INT, to being about average, and they get WIS instead? An almost useless stat, even if the changes are only minor overall. Maybe reconsider what stats they are increased in? Elves will see a major drop in INT and many of them have been casters for ages, because of the increase in INT. Now they have to switch to Gnomes for the same effect? That's not going to happen.

Shesara's player

[Redblade]

I must agree slightly with Quantum. It feels as if there were very, very little reason not to pick human. The ones I come up with are absurd or funny (caster dwarf dumping dex over con, caster hobbit dumping str for a boost in dex).

There's some points to consider:
If the boost/penalty is so minor that it really doesn't affect much, how is this different from option A? If it isn't, you can't say that it really is equally viable to be in all guilds for all races
Who'd pick elf now? I can't figure it out. What caster would dump dis now? (certainly not me and my elf caster will likely move to human) What melee would pick wis over dis?
How does this concern the beloved undead race? People tend to forget we have one, so what is their boost/penalty?

Personally, I side with the above suggested option E

Kudos on giving everyone a free pass on changing, I think it is a good idea. It will still break a lot of good roleplay though, for many of us.

[Quantum]

Since someone mentioned option E, let me expand on this.

Humans get +2% in all stats. Total of 12.

All other races get 10% in their primary, nothing else. Total 10. So if you want to go even stats, pick human. If you want something special, pick the race you think fits with your occupational guild.


Having debated the changes in various forums I have another idea.

Option G - All races get +5% on two stats - except humans who get 1% on all stats.

Goblins - str/con - Sub races saurian (10% con) and minotaur (10% str). Should humans be able to join these? Joining a sub-race replaces base race stats for the more specialized stats.

Elves - int/wis - Sub race drow (10% int)

Dwarves - str/dis - Sub race hill dwarf (str/con)

Hobbit - 10% dex - Should be a viable option for assasin type guilds if you remove the str penalty.

Gnome - dex/int

From talking to people all morning there seems to be agreement that if you change something, don't have stat detractors. Only bonus stats.

With best regards,
Quantum

[Yoritomo]

When you visit Lars, and decide to change races...was there any info there in the room descriptions on races? That would need an update, but I can't remember if there was anything giving info or not.

I'm excited for the change. Races evened up with either equal stats or a +1/-1 to give a little, but not crippling, advantage and disadvantage that we can cover through meditation if we need to. I'm imagining new possibilities now that the ups and (especially) downs are less drastic. Get into those juicy RP choices that I might have shied away from because of stats.

Thanks for the work Immortals! Yori is a fresh titan still but is loving the experience so far.

[Zhar]

How would the ogres look like with this new system? If all races get minor bonuses/penalties compared to what they have now the huge boosts ogres get might be blown out of proportion.

@Quantum - I like your idea, but for minotaurs I think also dwarves can become one (human, goblin, dwarf).

@Shesara -
Elves have always been a caster race in my head, but they keep getting deducted in a spell-casting-heavy stat: DIS.

I also find it odd that elves would get penalties in discipline (they have that even now I believe) but with big boost to int it could kind of be justified - you have a harder time landing a spell but when it lands it hits harder (compared to human caster). Personally I'd rather see them as having boost to int but penalty in str or con.

[Cherek]

Quantum: You make some valid points, and unfortunately your, and others, comments kind of confirms a worry we had about this idea. Our worry was that no matter how small we make the stat modifiers, players (who don't know the numbers) will still _perceive_ the differences as signifficant, and still pick that race that appears to be the best one for their playstyle/guild, etc. And if that happens, we are not ahieving the goal of making every race a reasonable choice for every guild / playstyle (that the race is allowed to join). Although the mathematical balance will of course still be a lot better.

Regarding your first suggestion of not having a drawback stat, but instead give each non-human a boost one stat, I am not sure that is much different from what we are suggesting. In our suggestion you get one strong stat and one weak stat, in your suggestion you get one strong stat and _five_ slightly weaker stats. So, you will be better than a human in one stat, but worse in five.

About your other suggestions, they don't add up mathematically I think? If humans get +2% in all stats, they get a total of +12, while all other races get a total of +10. That will not only be perceiced as imbalanced, it will be imbalanced. Same goes for your option G, but the opposite. All non-human races get +10%, while humans get +6%. So, in that example humans are the weakest race instead of the strongest.

[Cherek]

A clarification about humans, since many have wondered why they get a boost. In the old (current) system, the numbers do not add up. Some races are simply mathematically weaker, while others are mathematically stronger. In the new system the numbers will add upp, and to achieve this we of course need to manipulate the numbers. We decided to slightly boost the humans, and than balance all other races with the new human as a baseline. The reason for this is that if we do not boost humans, and use their current modifiers as baseline, we'd be "balancing down", meaning many players would end up slightly _smaller_ with the new system, and we figured nobody would like that.

However, the new humans will NOT be any stronger than the other new races, they will just be stronger than the old humans, but the other races will also be just as good as the new humans.

[Quantum]

Cherek - Have you considered removing stat modifiers from races and put them on the guilds instead? Fighter guilds get +5% str, dex, con and magic guilds get +5% int, wis and dis? That way all races are equally viable and you will always have slightly better stats for the guild you are in.

[TaranGoatWalker]

Rache said something on discord, and I took what he said and made option G (?)

Make race cosmetic, and the choice of 'race-like' stats at char creation.

I don't see a drawback to this. Anyone able to point one out?