ahahahhahahaha no.2
noone doubt it
we also know that caid is this magic error-free formula that we can always rely on!
Racial stats rebalance
Forum rules
- Use common sense and be respectful towards each other at all times, even when disagreeing.
- Do not reveal sensitive game information. Guild secrets, player seconds are examples of things not allowed.
- Use common sense and be respectful towards each other at all times, even when disagreeing.
- Do not reveal sensitive game information. Guild secrets, player seconds are examples of things not allowed.
Re: Racial stats rebalance
Ahh, found it, please state how this is guild sensitive information?Quantum wrote: ↑01 Jan 2023 11:28Moderator: This section has been removed for violating our forums rules regarding not revealing sensitive game information. Making a list of a guild's abilities (that aren't openly listed within the game is not okay), regardless if the list is actually correct or not, which I will obviously not comment on.
Previously in this thread Ckrik was very vocal about the Secret Society and some internal mechanics in this guild. Nothing was noted about him revealing guild sensitive internal mechanics. Yet you instantly clamp down on anyone saying anything about vampires. Why are you not treating guilds the same? Why are you protecting the vampires?
Help rules and help guild also do not tell us not to reveal information about guilds. A guild may instruct members of said guild not to reveal anything about the guild. But there have never been any rules in Genesis prohibiting sharing guild information. So why now? Only to protect the vampires?
This is getting really weird. Why are you so over-protective of the vampire guild? What makes them so special?
Cherek - In regards to alignment, at hero, neutral is best, good is second best, evil is third. I have mentally gone through all mortal levels and I honestly can't see evil comming out on top at any point. Nor do I see any reason why one race should be more inclined to be evil than any other.
Looking at the active players, there seem to be more goodaligned goblins than evil.
And then you managed to dodge all the real questions. Good on you to deflect like this.
Can you please stop dancing around these topics and just give some honest answers to the questions we have? So far that's not what I see. I may be wrong, if so please re-state all the answers I missed. And answers to Redblade, Radatha, Zhabou and MMM. There are lots of questions here, on the Sparkle board and on Discord. Not a lot of answers.
In regards to Kvators notes, I agree with what he states - It's very easy and convenient to tell us that you have all the numbers and that it all is within the rules. But we may not know the numbers, we just have to trust you on that. And then we experience something entirely different in the game. If we experienced what you say, then we would not doubt what you say.
Have you considered being more open and transparent? I get that this is what you have always done, kept all numbers on the wizard side. Now you change racial bonus, you changed white hits, you changed spells. Maybe change to a more transparent approach?
Or at least answer questions instead of deflecting?
Re: Racial stats rebalance
I think you must have had a bit too much fun celebrating the New Years!
I don't recall posting anything regarding Kenders on this thread. Please don't muddle the discussion and keep your participation in it on topic.Re: Racial stats rebalance
Quantum, your questions have been answered. You do not seem to like the answers, and claim it is deflection. I will try to address them one more time, but the style of writing you are using is making it hard to respond civilly.
The roleplay or attitude of a guild does not come into play whatsoever in balance decisions. You can act as condescending or however you like in your guild, without fear of the balance team reducing the guild as retribution.
The vampires do not use any novel technique to get around balance constraints. Their combat aid follows the same rules as everyone else, and their abilities apply the same limits. Their allowed skills follow the same rules as everyone else, with no special benefit given for being all three slots. They do not get bonuses for their guild-specific penalties, outside of the standardized undead benefit/penalty set. The GM has said it, the Arch of Balance has said it, and the Keeper has said it.
The Nazgul was made significantly harder, in part due to complaints about vampires being able to kill it. The undead fatigue was significantly nerfed this past year, in part due to complaints about vampires being able to run around so much.
There are things, claimed by players, that have been flat out wrong, and we cannot counter every single piece of incorrect information.
I have responded to Radatha's note in Sparkle, trying to address her point by point. You can read my responses there.
Zhabou's questions about secret human bonuses (or anything of that sort) have been definitively answered by multiple people, and I am not sure what remains untouched there.
MMM appears to be very unhappy with the tone of wizards. We are trying very hard to be polite, courteous, and open, yet everything we say still appears to be condescending. All I can say is - please put yourself in our shoes. You are trying to hold us to an impossible standard. We talk with people to understand what might need addressing. We then review the code and the data, and have significant discussions, involving many wizards, to make a determination of the right course of action. The Arches, or if the decision is impactful, the Keeper, make all the final decisions. ANYBODY who wants to volunteer and take part in these processes is welcome to become a wizard, as long as they follow the stricter rules that all wizards are held accountable too.
From Redblade's other question on page 2: Undead is not a race. Outside of darkvision, they have bonuses that are quite beneficial but in very limited situations. They have significant penalties to counter that, such as slower healing from alcohol, which is globally beneficial for fighters, and lack of access to herbs, which are quite beneficial for things like resistance and fatigue recovery. Ckrik and Cherek have looked through the undead abilities multiple times this year - to determine whether this specific repeated complaint merits change. They make all decisions regarding that. This is a regular complaint, and gets attention right from the top. I am not sure if there is any other question that hasn't been directly addressed from his notes.
The roleplay or attitude of a guild does not come into play whatsoever in balance decisions. You can act as condescending or however you like in your guild, without fear of the balance team reducing the guild as retribution.
The vampires do not use any novel technique to get around balance constraints. Their combat aid follows the same rules as everyone else, and their abilities apply the same limits. Their allowed skills follow the same rules as everyone else, with no special benefit given for being all three slots. They do not get bonuses for their guild-specific penalties, outside of the standardized undead benefit/penalty set. The GM has said it, the Arch of Balance has said it, and the Keeper has said it.
The Nazgul was made significantly harder, in part due to complaints about vampires being able to kill it. The undead fatigue was significantly nerfed this past year, in part due to complaints about vampires being able to run around so much.
There are things, claimed by players, that have been flat out wrong, and we cannot counter every single piece of incorrect information.
I have responded to Radatha's note in Sparkle, trying to address her point by point. You can read my responses there.
Zhabou's questions about secret human bonuses (or anything of that sort) have been definitively answered by multiple people, and I am not sure what remains untouched there.
MMM appears to be very unhappy with the tone of wizards. We are trying very hard to be polite, courteous, and open, yet everything we say still appears to be condescending. All I can say is - please put yourself in our shoes. You are trying to hold us to an impossible standard. We talk with people to understand what might need addressing. We then review the code and the data, and have significant discussions, involving many wizards, to make a determination of the right course of action. The Arches, or if the decision is impactful, the Keeper, make all the final decisions. ANYBODY who wants to volunteer and take part in these processes is welcome to become a wizard, as long as they follow the stricter rules that all wizards are held accountable too.
From Redblade's other question on page 2: Undead is not a race. Outside of darkvision, they have bonuses that are quite beneficial but in very limited situations. They have significant penalties to counter that, such as slower healing from alcohol, which is globally beneficial for fighters, and lack of access to herbs, which are quite beneficial for things like resistance and fatigue recovery. Ckrik and Cherek have looked through the undead abilities multiple times this year - to determine whether this specific repeated complaint merits change. They make all decisions regarding that. This is a regular complaint, and gets attention right from the top. I am not sure if there is any other question that hasn't been directly addressed from his notes.
Last edited by zizuph on 01 Jan 2023 21:15, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Racial stats rebalance
The problem with your scheme, Zhar, is that goblins and gnomes will be races that are highly advantaged in physical and mental stats respectively. Conversely, they are highly disadvantaged in the other category -- each of those two races get a -2 and +2 in the physical/mental categories.Zhar wrote: ↑01 Jan 2023 11:52HUMAN - no bonuses/penalties
DWARF - +con, +dis, -dex, -int (sturdy and courageous but not very nimble and extremely traditional in their views)
ELF - +dex, +wis, -str, -con (good spellcasters and archers but a bit frail)
GNOME - +int, +dis, -str, -con (brave innovators and great arcane spellcasters)
GOBLIN - +str, +con, -int, -dis (similar to what they have now but toned down)
HOBBIT - +dex, +dis, -str, -wis (nimble and brave but not particularly strong or knowledgeable)
I argued for a -1 and +1 crossing category scheme for elf and goblin (with elf +1 in WIS -1 in CON and goblin +1 in STR and -1 in INT, WIS or DIS). However, the others thought maintaining the buff and debuff stats in the same category was a better balance and I fully agree from a pure balance perspective. My thought was that a small imbalance would be interesting from a game design and Genesis heritage point of view.
What do players think about the slight imperfection in balance in the scheme I argued for?
In any case, Cherek, Zizuph and I -- who are the 3 wizards mainly involved in the change debate before we opened things up to everyone -- think the numbers involved will only be worthwhile for the most hardcore min/maxers out there. So I don't see a major fairness issue as long as the scheme is +1 and -1 for one stat each.
Re: Racial stats rebalance
In terms of damage specials, stoneskin/evade/stun, and the like, yes, they are. A GM picks a percentage of CAID to apply to the special, and the Balance team ensures that the math behind the abilities makes them as apples-to-apples as possible. These are regularly reviewed as well. (see Ckrik's note on changes to stoneskin/evade that rolled out with the damage change as an example of this)
Re: Racial stats rebalance
I agree that with this scheme 2 races would be biased towards fighter/caster career but would that really be such a bad thing? In my opinion it would be interesting to have some "specialized" edge cases for serious min-maxers and just for added variety. If the bonuses/penalties were kept small this shouldn't matter much anyway, you could still offset them with setting proper focus during meditation so a goblin could still be a caster but would be just slightly worse at casting than gnome but in return would be more sturdy (so more fitting for a battle-mage type).Ckrik wrote: ↑01 Jan 2023 21:03The problem with your scheme, Zhar, is that goblins and gnomes will be races that are highly advantaged in physical and mental stats respectively. Conversely, they are highly disadvantaged in the other category -- each of those two races get a -2 and +2 in the physical/mental categories.Zhar wrote: ↑01 Jan 2023 11:52HUMAN - no bonuses/penalties
DWARF - +con, +dis, -dex, -int (sturdy and courageous but not very nimble and extremely traditional in their views)
ELF - +dex, +wis, -str, -con (good spellcasters and archers but a bit frail)
GNOME - +int, +dis, -str, -con (brave innovators and great arcane spellcasters)
GOBLIN - +str, +con, -int, -dis (similar to what they have now but toned down)
HOBBIT - +dex, +dis, -str, -wis (nimble and brave but not particularly strong or knowledgeable)
I argued for a -1 and +1 crossing category scheme for elf and goblin (with elf +1 in WIS -1 in CON and goblin +1 in STR and -1 in INT, WIS or DIS). However, the others thought maintaining the buff and debuff stats in the same category was a better balance and I fully agree from a pure balance perspective. My thought was that a small imbalance would be interesting from a game design and Genesis heritage point of view.
What do players think about the slight imperfection in balance in the scheme I argued for?
In any case, Cherek, Zizuph and I -- who are the 3 wizards mainly involved in the change debate before we opened things up to everyone -- think the numbers involved will only be worthwhile for the most hardcore min/maxers out there. So I don't see a major fairness issue as long as the scheme is +1 and -1 for one stat each.
One thing I'm unsure of though is if different mental stats are used for spellcasting for different guild types (clerics using primarily wisdom while arcane casters intelligence). This would make dwarves an excellent pick for a cleric for example.
Like I said earlier, I'm fine with there being just one bonus/penalty stat but I think if you change it to 2 of each there's more potential variety and the general "feel" of the race is better defined.
Time is precious. Waste it wisely.
Re: Racial stats rebalance
Back in, whenever the hell it was, the administration responded to new players’ feedback regarding the odd mechanic about equipment falling off their bodies as they quit. It was the biggest gripe ever newcomer had, and such needed to be addressed.
The administration made it so that equipment always saved, completely disregarding the core mechanic that was racks. Racks made joining a guild super important because then you had a place to store your hard earned items, and the “better” the guild the better the chance of finding them again upon return. If you had a very active guild, chances are you would find even better items than those you left. Removing this was my gripe upon introducing this change, yet no one listened.
Since then racks have served as a hoard, something I too am guilty of adding to. I’ve long lost count of how many time-broken items I’ve tossed, and I reckon this propensity to hoard stuff is a major (but not the only) contributor to the frustration I’ve experienced regarding spawn rates.
Also, in recent times admin felt the need to “nerf” the mercenaries, because everyone was too content, and nerfing them was a means to inspire members to hop on to more “serious” options. Dare I say that mercenaries rose in popularity because racks are no longer needed?
See, what I just did was criticize the whole “foreversave”-debacle without even mentioning the gigantic after-thought that was imbuements combined with non-dulling properties that too this day are one of (but not the only) contributor to the influx in player sizes that we have to day.
Said plainly: You changed a core mechanic and made the game worse for it.
Somewhat more recently, a function to reset your stats without repeated deaths was made available. I protested this too, but again protests fell on deaf ears. The fact that the repeated deaths method was so punishing made people more invested in their character and their guild (at least class of guild). It made people think changes over for more than a couple seconds before switching from a fighter-oriented guild to a magic-oriented one, thereby preventing guild hopping and the likes.
To me it felt like an act of urinating all over the work that those of us that put in the time, effort and work into such a process, diminishing our (perceived, perhaps) worth as skilled and dedicated players.
Said plainly: You changed a core mechanic and made the game worse for it.
I could go on about older changes to core mechanics like new mortals levels, recovery-mode, introducing “magic for all”, new combat messages, standardization of spells and abilities, introducing a new “race” (undead) and probably others that touched upon core mechanics, and there would be pros and cons to them all. Some are actual life improvements, others changed the game into something that it wasn’t.
Said plainly: You’ve changed many core mechanics and (sometimes) made the game worse for it.
What you’re now suggesting is another change to core mechanics. Races’ abilities and bonuses/drawbacks differ from other games, sure. Do some of the races come out “better” than others? Probably. Is the solution to make everything equal?
Are you out of your mind? Ask any new player, particularly the ones who have played other MUDs previously, and they’ll all say that Genesis is something special, there is nothing else like it, and they’re completely in love with/addicted to it. They got this way despite the perceived racial imbalances, and those that are here 25+ years later, are still here!
A change to another core mechanic won’t solve the problems of a declining player base. If you go through with this, players will leave and there will be less players who will recommend the game to others and down the spiral goes.
No, the problem isn’t racial, it’s size. The size inflation is real, and my suggestion is stay away from core mechanics and consider a purge instead. However, purging the game completely will most likely be a very bad idea. Identities will be lost, guilds broken and no.. just bad.
However, a relatively basic script that just removed the combat experience from every player file will retain every aspect of the game, but level the playing field for all. Unfair advantages gained from foreversaving items, white hits change doubling growth and other previous cheats/hacks/exploits rendered a thing of the past.
A fresh start, tabula rasa - That’s what the game needs. I know I would probably be re-invigorated, and would look forward to enjoying the game as a small player, yet retain the role, identity and infamy acquired over many years playing this game.
It’s a super drastic change, and I wouldn’t go through with it without the community’s approval, but at least you wouldn’t change a core mechanic and make the game worse for it.
The administration made it so that equipment always saved, completely disregarding the core mechanic that was racks. Racks made joining a guild super important because then you had a place to store your hard earned items, and the “better” the guild the better the chance of finding them again upon return. If you had a very active guild, chances are you would find even better items than those you left. Removing this was my gripe upon introducing this change, yet no one listened.
Since then racks have served as a hoard, something I too am guilty of adding to. I’ve long lost count of how many time-broken items I’ve tossed, and I reckon this propensity to hoard stuff is a major (but not the only) contributor to the frustration I’ve experienced regarding spawn rates.
Also, in recent times admin felt the need to “nerf” the mercenaries, because everyone was too content, and nerfing them was a means to inspire members to hop on to more “serious” options. Dare I say that mercenaries rose in popularity because racks are no longer needed?
See, what I just did was criticize the whole “foreversave”-debacle without even mentioning the gigantic after-thought that was imbuements combined with non-dulling properties that too this day are one of (but not the only) contributor to the influx in player sizes that we have to day.
Said plainly: You changed a core mechanic and made the game worse for it.
Somewhat more recently, a function to reset your stats without repeated deaths was made available. I protested this too, but again protests fell on deaf ears. The fact that the repeated deaths method was so punishing made people more invested in their character and their guild (at least class of guild). It made people think changes over for more than a couple seconds before switching from a fighter-oriented guild to a magic-oriented one, thereby preventing guild hopping and the likes.
To me it felt like an act of urinating all over the work that those of us that put in the time, effort and work into such a process, diminishing our (perceived, perhaps) worth as skilled and dedicated players.
Said plainly: You changed a core mechanic and made the game worse for it.
I could go on about older changes to core mechanics like new mortals levels, recovery-mode, introducing “magic for all”, new combat messages, standardization of spells and abilities, introducing a new “race” (undead) and probably others that touched upon core mechanics, and there would be pros and cons to them all. Some are actual life improvements, others changed the game into something that it wasn’t.
Said plainly: You’ve changed many core mechanics and (sometimes) made the game worse for it.
What you’re now suggesting is another change to core mechanics. Races’ abilities and bonuses/drawbacks differ from other games, sure. Do some of the races come out “better” than others? Probably. Is the solution to make everything equal?
Are you out of your mind? Ask any new player, particularly the ones who have played other MUDs previously, and they’ll all say that Genesis is something special, there is nothing else like it, and they’re completely in love with/addicted to it. They got this way despite the perceived racial imbalances, and those that are here 25+ years later, are still here!
A change to another core mechanic won’t solve the problems of a declining player base. If you go through with this, players will leave and there will be less players who will recommend the game to others and down the spiral goes.
No, the problem isn’t racial, it’s size. The size inflation is real, and my suggestion is stay away from core mechanics and consider a purge instead. However, purging the game completely will most likely be a very bad idea. Identities will be lost, guilds broken and no.. just bad.
However, a relatively basic script that just removed the combat experience from every player file will retain every aspect of the game, but level the playing field for all. Unfair advantages gained from foreversaving items, white hits change doubling growth and other previous cheats/hacks/exploits rendered a thing of the past.
A fresh start, tabula rasa - That’s what the game needs. I know I would probably be re-invigorated, and would look forward to enjoying the game as a small player, yet retain the role, identity and infamy acquired over many years playing this game.
It’s a super drastic change, and I wouldn’t go through with it without the community’s approval, but at least you wouldn’t change a core mechanic and make the game worse for it.
Last edited by nils on 02 Jan 2023 01:04, edited 1 time in total.
Nil Mortifi Sine Lucre
Re: Racial stats rebalance
This is already covered by race guilds. And some races have more choices, so if someone wants to wiz and code a gnome, dwarf or goblin race guild for the community send Cherek an application.
[/quote]
Well, I mean a racial bonus to work more like a imbuement. An elf, for example get +5 herbalism. So an elf gardener would have conf professional in herbalism. That is not offered from racial guilds.
Just wanted to clarify how I was thinking.
http://tworzymyatmosfere.pl/przescieradla-jedwabne-z-gumka/