AH Suggestion - simple / problem solver

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zizuph
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Re: AH Suggestion - simple / problem solver

Post by zizuph » 20 Jan 2023 23:45

cyork2 wrote:
13 Jan 2023 21:28
Z - thank you for taking the time and doing the due diligence on the issue. If the frequency is insufficient to merit action, perhaps in time enough complaints will be made to raise the priority.

For your reference, in the hope that at some point this issue will rise in priority, I did some research on the forums and identified all of the threads / people who would like to see something done. It looks like the reason nothing has been done in the past is that the 'best' solution proposed wound up being complicated to code (a script proof buy it now captcha that is only active the first few minutes after an auction is posted). In some cases, it seems we fall into the trap of great being the enemy of good and nothing gets done. If / when this issue does get taken up to code, I would suggest one of the simpler ideas would be sufficient.

Threads Which Include Complaining About Robot AH Buyers (and solutions in some cases)
---DATE--- : ----- FORUM TOPIC ------
Oct 29 2022 : The Auction House - a ridulous solution
Mar 25 2020 : 1 Minute Delay
Jul 19 2020 : Auction for non-robots
May 25 2016 : Scripting in Genesis
Mar 06 2016 : Stopping script-buying on the Auction House (12 pages!)
Feb 17 2016 : Imbuement and Armour Changes (the discussion went off topic, including AH scripting)

Players Who Have Complained About Scripted Buying and/or Proposed Solutions on this Forum
Avo
Boreaulam
Budwise
Chanele
Dakhor
Freya
Irk
Jar
Kelrhys
Kilrayne
Kirsach
Kitriana
Mayobe
Mim
Morgzaash
Rincon
Rixe
Salmon
Shanoga
Skykil
Skythus
Strider
Targun
Thalric
Val
Ydred

I tried to leave off Wizards even though a number of them also posted that they agreed and thought it was worth doing something.

I am aware of several other people, not on this list, who would like auto-scripted buying fixed but as they have not posted on the forums that could just as easily be me making stuff up so I did not include them and am not naming them.

Best,
Avo
Yes, I have seen these. I personally believe the prevalence in bots leads to complaints in all domains, and AH is one of them. In the past long time was a big source of complaints too, where Swedish players could catch things before others do.

I don’t have an easy answer. We discussed “let everyone BIN and random pick a winner. I looked at delaying the notification of AH items for a time for anyone who bought an item in under a certain threshold, so their snag rate is limited. It is a constant problem elsewhere - see Ticketmaster, Sneaker sales, etc. I don’t have a workable model that I can base the work on.

Say it took your approach and said 12h BIN turns on. Those with low ping times set an auto timer for 12h later. So I randomize the delay. Now those that run aulist constantly on timer see it first.

Say I only check BIN after X minutes/hours, and whoever is highest bid gets it then. Who sticks around all that time to keep outbidding? Idle bots as Quantum mentioned. And if people are mispricing, isn’t learning how to sell at the right price another aspect of game play?

Everything has trade offs, unfortunately.

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nils
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Re: AH Suggestion - simple / problem solver

Post by nils » 21 Jan 2023 00:53

How about simply adding a random (or fixed, whatever) delay after publishing, leaving the item up for people to see, study and make up their minds and then compete by being the first, like in the real world?
5ish mins should be plenty.

Alternatively, remove the "buy now"-function all together, and let it work like a proper auction house with the existing time restraints.
Nil Mortifi Sine Lucre

Quantum
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Re: AH Suggestion - simple / problem solver

Post by Quantum » 21 Jan 2023 14:01

I think Nils may be right about removing the buyout. If you just want fast cash, set the auction to 12 hours. Someone will have bid on it by then. If you want to increase your chances of getting more money, set it to 72 hours. That way we can all bid on things. And the bots can't just instantly buyout all the good stuff.

Can the bots still overbid you 1 minute before auction ends? Sure, but at least I get to bid the price up before they do. And if there is an item I really want, I can set a timer on my phone so I can do a bid war with the bot.

Bots still have an advantage then, but it is less than it is now.

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Cherek
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Re: AH Suggestion - simple / problem solver

Post by Cherek » 21 Jan 2023 14:16

nils wrote:
21 Jan 2023 00:53
How about simply adding a random (or fixed, whatever) delay after publishing, leaving the item up for people to see, study and make up their minds and then compete by being the first, like in the real world?
5ish mins should be plenty.

Alternatively, remove the "buy now"-function all together, and let it work like a proper auction house with the existing time restraints.
I've suggested this before when this discussion has come up, and been met with a lot of resistance from players. And there are a few good good arguments against removing buy now. First of all, it's hard to match your playing schedule to whenever auctions end, which of course is why Ebay and similar sites have autobid stuff, which is probably something we would need to implement in Genesis as well, otherwise it'll probably just be frustrating to try to win the item you want.

Also, the auction house is used to sell a lot of second and third tier stuff to low-ish level of players, who can just buy a decent armour or weapon for a couple of plats, and get it immediately. This type of buying and selling would also be lost if we didn't have a buy now option. Of course, we could perhaps only allow "buy now" up maybe 100p or so.

Pros and con to all systems though, including the current system.

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nils
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Re: AH Suggestion - simple / problem solver

Post by nils » 21 Jan 2023 17:43

Sure, now what about a random or fixed delay between when the item appears on AH and when its actually biddable? A couple minutes, just to grant others a chance to inspect said item and be ready for the moment. No announcement string, just a hidden timer that, once eloped, opens up for bids.

Would people spam like crazy? Probably
Would the ones with the least latency have an edge? If there was a string, yes. Without one it could just pan out to strokes of luck.

And that is the most important part: there would be at least a small chance to beat the bots, unlike now when the item is gone as soon as it appears.

Perfect? Nah.
Better? I think so, and all it takes is a timer..
Nil Mortifi Sine Lucre

Quantum
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Re: AH Suggestion - simple / problem solver

Post by Quantum » 22 Jan 2023 03:18

Cherek wrote:
21 Jan 2023 14:16
nils wrote:
21 Jan 2023 00:53
How about simply adding a random (or fixed, whatever) delay after publishing, leaving the item up for people to see, study and make up their minds and then compete by being the first, like in the real world?
5ish mins should be plenty.

Alternatively, remove the "buy now"-function all together, and let it work like a proper auction house with the existing time restraints.
I've suggested this before when this discussion has come up, and been met with a lot of resistance from players. And there are a few good good arguments against removing buy now. First of all, it's hard to match your playing schedule to whenever auctions end, which of course is why Ebay and similar sites have autobid stuff, which is probably something we would need to implement in Genesis as well, otherwise it'll probably just be frustrating to try to win the item you want.

Also, the auction house is used to sell a lot of second and third tier stuff to low-ish level of players, who can just buy a decent armour or weapon for a couple of plats, and get it immediately. This type of buying and selling would also be lost if we didn't have a buy now option. Of course, we could perhaps only allow "buy now" up maybe 100p or so.

Pros and con to all systems though, including the current system.
I like the idea of being able to set a bid limit on how much you are willing to bid upwards if others bid on an item. Sort of like a pre-bid. This allows those without advanced programming skills to better compete on the market.

Also, would you consider marking imbued and non-imbued items as 2 different auction type? This way you could keep the buyout on "newbie" or "secondary" items and remove it on imbued items to better allow for more people to bid on them?

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Cherek
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Re: AH Suggestion - simple / problem solver

Post by Cherek » 24 Jan 2023 16:03

Quantum: There are lots of possible ideas that are definitely worth exploring, and if a wizard wants to pick one (that we haven't already dismissed before) and give it a go, I will not stand in the way. Unless I really think it's a bad idea of course. Right now this is not a project I will push myself, though, as we have hundreds of different things we could do and have to make priorities.

Like Zizuph explained earlier, me and him discussed a few different options before, but based on the ideas we had then, their pros and cons, and how complex or easy they would be to implement, we decided to keep things as they are regarding the auction bot issue. Right now, me, Zizuph, and Ckrik are all quite busy with other projects that we want to finish, so, I dont think this iwill be a focus for us right now. However, that doesn't stop someone else from volunteering.

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Zhar
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Re: AH Suggestion - simple / problem solver

Post by Zhar » 29 Jan 2023 15:17

I think one solution to the problem could be this:
1. Remove the "buy now" feature, let all auctions run their course.
2. Add the ability to place "buy orders", where people would select the item/imbuement they want and a price they're willing to pay for it and others could deliver it to receive instant cash. This might be hard to implement but I think would be a cool feature. Plenty of good gear is rotting in the racks because people don't know what to do with it, if they'd see someone is looking for it they'd probably be willing to sell it instead.
Time is precious. Waste it wisely.

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Skythus
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Re: AH Suggestion - simple / problem solver

Post by Skythus » 29 Jan 2023 20:49

Zhar wrote:
29 Jan 2023 15:17
I think one solution to the problem could be this:
1. Remove the "buy now" feature, let all auctions run their course.
2. Add the ability to place "buy orders", where people would select the item/imbuement they want and a price they're willing to pay for it and others could deliver it to receive instant cash. This might be hard to implement but I think would be a cool feature. Plenty of good gear is rotting in the racks because people don't know what to do with it, if they'd see someone is looking for it they'd probably be willing to sell it instead.
Like Zhar says there is a lot of EQ laying in the racks that is valuable but possibly not directly useful to the guild.

I like the idea of separating auctions and buy-it-nows. Being able to instantly buy everything at the drop of a hat remotely is just asking for someone to idle at a bank with scripts on.

If you want to anti-bot, you could introduce more open guild stores similar to the Elemental Clerics, but primarily guild stocked and priced. You could still view the inventory on the paddle but only buy at each respective store. This would have other effects, such as Rangers possibly not being able to buy Agnarim wares and having to go through a middleman.

These stores could sell default wares based on the type of guild and have a direct buy vendor. A portion of the sale could go to a treasury that could be used to increase the value of default items, purchase items from other guilds wholesale, or purchase guild real estate. For instance, WoHS could sell enhancers and potions, and use the money from the proceeds to purchase alcohol from the Neidar at a reduced price. If you didn't want to buy directly from a guild, you could use the money to increase the potency of the enhancers or increase the variety of potions, which could earn more money. Maybe the guilds of Middle-Earth will use their proceeds to claim territory/start rooms for their members.

Not as easy as it sounds on paper but a good way to bump elbows and prevents squatting at Rommik's tent to get items.

Time to expand the Genesis Economy?

Targun
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Re: AH Suggestion - simple / problem solver

Post by Targun » 01 Feb 2023 20:54

I suppose that the solution - if any - needs to be "good enough, with as little work as possible". There's never a shortage of ideas on Genesis, it's the workforce that's lacking.

From my perspective; disabling buyout when the asking price exceeds e.g. 200pc and setting minimum time for all all other auctions seems to:

- be easy to implement
- solve the core problem we're discussing
- allow decent quality items to still be acquired through buyout

Not saying it's the best solution, but I think it realistic (if ever to be implemented anyway). Either way AH is a great addition to the game and even when it stays as is, it's a significant improvement compared to the world without it.

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