Crowd control

Discuss general game topics or anything else that doesn't fit in the other forums
Forum rules
- Use common sense and be respectful towards each other at all times, even when disagreeing.
- Do not reveal sensitive game information. Guild secrets, player seconds are examples of things not allowed.
Post Reply
zizuph
Veteran
Posts: 234
Joined: 17 Jun 2021 01:52

Crowd control

Post by zizuph » 14 Apr 2023 21:33

After long delay, we are about to have all the pieces in place to look at enabling crowd control effects. I recognize that this is a thing that PvPwrs have been waiting for (and those that aren’t have been dreading).

Instead of just turning back on the old system, I am going to be evaluating everything end to end and trying to find a balance between making it possible to kill other players, and making it trivial. I do not want to see the latter.

I would like to open up a discussion on what people think this should look like. If we can keep this constructive, I will strive to integrate this into the overall design. If this leads to a bunch for fighting, I’ll reach out for feedback to individuals.

There are several pieces to look at:
Block skill
Paralyzes
Slow move effects (type west, you go west 1s later)
Auto follow
Sup guru tracking
Fatigue draining effects

Other things that I will need to consider:
Alpha strike (backstab, attacks from invis)
Scry
Control of who takes hits
Team teleport

I think I may need to introduce counter effects (ability to escape blocks etc) for guilds that are avoidant of PvP conflict.

This is a big subject and I expect it will involve a lot of jumping around. I will try to touch on the various ideas as I can.

So how do people want to see crowd control work?

Dan
Adventurer
Posts: 88
Joined: 25 Jan 2015 10:38

Re: Crowd control

Post by Dan » 14 Apr 2023 22:22

They work best as they are now, aka disabled. It takes a huge effort to gain xp, its good that it takes a huge effort to kill someone.

Celemir
Wanderer
Posts: 64
Joined: 11 Mar 2016 10:02

Re: Crowd control

Post by Celemir » 14 Apr 2023 22:39

How about looking into hide and sneak mechanics.
It was supposed to be looked at, at the same time as the ranger recode, or just after as I recall it, but I I don't know if this has happened yet.

zizuph
Veteran
Posts: 234
Joined: 17 Jun 2021 01:52

Re: Crowd control

Post by zizuph » 15 Apr 2023 00:14

Celemir wrote:
14 Apr 2023 22:39
How about looking into hide and sneak mechanics.
It was supposed to be looked at, at the same time as the ranger recode, or just after as I recall it, but I I don't know if this has happened yet.
That remains a project on Ckrik’s plate and is certainly not forgotten. Some of it will tie into this.

TaranGoatWalker
Great Adventurer
Posts: 191
Joined: 04 Aug 2020 23:23
Location: Somewhere

Re: Crowd control

Post by TaranGoatWalker » 15 Apr 2023 07:51

How do we want to see it work...
I personally, such that with a well prepared trap, one can be killed. Paralyzes are available, but not abundant.
Stabby stabby stab stab.

Archie
Apprentice
Posts: 25
Joined: 19 Jun 2010 08:19

Re: Crowd control

Post by Archie » 15 Apr 2023 08:17

Can it be enabled for NPCs but disabled for players?

That means the thematic of the ability is still there, which can still aid in combat against NPCs but would not impact the player interactions, and therefor cause less grief.

As a non-PVPer generally I also prefer they are disabled.

Archie

Thalric
Rising Hero
Posts: 343
Joined: 14 Jun 2016 16:34

Re: Crowd control

Post by Thalric » 15 Apr 2023 10:10

I don't think a reactivation will lead to anything else than annoyance and frustration.

The people who like pvp, don't like to be the prey. They like to be the hunter.
So they will be active and hunt others while they are prepared and have time for it.
If someone else then assembles a team to retaliate, the now prey will then hurry away in safety and wait for the stupid hunters to go away.
It will only ruin people's fun in playing, and it will mean that a bunch of the casual players will either stop playing entirely or shift away from their main characters, since they don't want those killed.
I do believe we see that already, based on how the guild abilities, defensive and offensive powers and so on has shifted in the past few years.

OCC magic sucks, OCC melee is king, layman magic is king, layman melee sucks.
Darkness items are WAY too common and fighting in darkness is so easy it's a joke.
In darkness people take down enemies that are levels higher than themselves.

Draugor
Myth
Posts: 1815
Joined: 06 Mar 2012 00:14

Re: Crowd control

Post by Draugor » 15 Apr 2023 10:48

Dan wrote:
14 Apr 2023 22:22
They work best as they are now, aka disabled. It takes a huge effort to gain xp, its good that it takes a huge effort to kill someone.
So just disable pvp :P Carebear mud best mud

qwertheangmarim
Adventurer
Posts: 98
Joined: 27 May 2022 14:30

Re: Crowd control

Post by qwertheangmarim » 15 Apr 2023 16:39

If guilds who previously had PvP abilities then lose them, will they be CAID compensated?
Looking (too my knowledge) at MM, AoD, Knights, and the DAs
WOOH LETS GO!!!!! :P

User avatar
nils
Titan
Posts: 458
Joined: 22 Jul 2016 17:13

Re: Crowd control

Post by nils » 15 Apr 2023 16:44

Block skill in it’s current (previous?) form isn’t super useful. With its long load time and need to specify the exit that needed blocking makes it incredibly difficult to utilize in the “heat of the moment”. It is also fairly easy to break by simply spamming.

Suggested improvements: Instead of blocking a specific exit, make it targetable and work in a manner that attempts to prevent the target from leaving in any direction. Make spam-breaking extra stamina-costly for both parts (obviously you spend energy both by trying to break the block, but also by preventing – the latter increases risk for the blocker too), but fairly high chance to break per attempt. Make the block as a skill available as an imbuement, seed new items that increase block skill and another with increased block breakage success rate (spiked armours?)

Paralyze/slow/chains are usually based on some element, be it poison or magic, and therefore subject to resistance to the element in question. There is already a system in place here, so no real improvement needed, save making sure that that everything works as intended. Effect duration vs cool down needs adjusting, at least for those 1-2 minute variants that exist (existed?) in certain hands.

Auto follow (only really relevant to one specific guild) should not allow for a scenario with an auto following team leader with a team passively following right behind him/her. If such a scenario is indeed what is intended, I would suggest loosening up on the global rules regarding automation to allow “hunting triggers”.

I don’t see any problems with the tracking function/abilities available in certain guilds, but I think offering up a way (itemization, imbuements) to improve the skill for everyone could be more readily available. Maybe also consider loosening up the rules in regards to automation (“tracking triggers) here as well.

Fatigue draining (usually through poison) in its current form is unproblematic. Urge checking that resistances work as intended. Adding the same mechanic as adrenaline to prevent subject from teleporting, quitting etc would increase utility.

I am too biased to have a public opinion about stealth and alpha strikes, but as mentioned above here – sneak/hide mechanics vs awareness skill inflation globally often renders (specifically) hide more or less worthless. But as already pointed out by TS, it's on someone's desk and hopefully it'll be resolved soon!

Whoever introduced cool down on scries must not have participated in a player hunt. I’d remove the cool down completely and rather look for ways to disable them completely for individual players who use the spell to harass others (AoP’s desk?)

Tank rotator has been an ability reserved for a privileged few and I’m told is not considered when calculating combat aid, which is of course preposterous. I know for a fact it is very much an excellent aid in combat, and utilized properly creates theoretical scenarios of unlimited health if the team is large enough. I’d say this too is a great candidate to become a global skill with imbuement and items to increase it.

Team teleports to player determined locations are game breaking and shouldn’t exist. I say this goes for sailing (or to use a better term: speed boating) between domains as well. Personal teleportation with certain limitation poses no real issue, however.

You did not touch upon mana draining items that ultimately lead to unconsciousness with subsequent inability to escape or fight back. Perhaps those most susceptible to this particular weapon type (ogre) should simply be made immune to it – basically too dumb to notice being hit on the head etc.

I like the concept of counters and the creation of such where none exist. Any crowd control ability/effect should naturally have some way of resisting, avoiding or breaking the effect by means of resisting the element (poison, magic etc), dice rolls (stat vs stat, skill, dodge/evade), items that allow physical avoidance (shoes and gloves vs caltrops) and so on. I see some item enabling levitation or floating (only by a couple cm) is needed to counter ogre stomp (and funnily enough lock the stomper in place). Same item would naturally also prevent tracking and maybe even alleviate stamina expenditure while travelling.

Wishful thinking, maybe, but it’s how I would like pvp and the above mentioned subjects to look like. Which was the request, yes?

As for the rest of the thread, I’m pretty sure TS wasn’t looking for “PVP - Yay or nay?”. Genesis has always been a pvp environment. The fact that your actions or words can have direct and dire consequences, that your guild membership pushes you to the front lines or shields you from danger or that even the smallest players can loot enough coins to place a contract on a larger player who somehow wrongs them is the only way our behavior is truly policed. It’s how we deal with lame thieves’ spam-stealing in sparkle, it’s how we deal with people who harass those weaker than themselves, people who kill steal or just griefing a-holes in general.

From a broader perspective, pvp is a way to curb size inflation, it provides a sort of end game for those that have done it all and probably a bunch of other arguments I’m unable to drum up right now.

Bottom line is, Genesis has always had free pvp and disabling or preventing it may very well lead to a lot of undesirable and yet un-thought of consequences. However, considering the current syrup that passes for combat these days, an adjustment to the recovery mode to lessen the effort needed to get back on the saddle is definitely called for. Particularly for pvp-deaths, if those could be singled out somehow.

Lastly, Thalric..
Using darkness and darkvision in combat has been a viable tactic in Genesis for more than two decades. It is available to everyone. Even you. Your choices in regards to how you wish to play the game (however noble and commendable it may be) does not even begin to justify imposing your self-imposed limitations on others.
Nil Mortifi Sine Lucre

Post Reply
http://tworzymyatmosfere.pl/przescieradla-jedwabne-z-gumka/