Crowd control

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qwertheangmarim
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Re: Crowd control

Post by qwertheangmarim » 30 Apr 2023 14:33

TaranGoatWalker wrote:
30 Apr 2023 09:40
I killed you? O.o
*facepalm*
Yes you did, remember on Riva's ship? It was a group effort...
WOOH LETS GO!!!!! :P

Rache
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Re: Crowd control

Post by Rache » 30 Apr 2023 22:52

Quantum wrote:
29 Apr 2023 22:48
Rache wrote:
28 Apr 2023 12:48
So quickly people forget that most of the best PVPers are currently in a guild that while being designed for PVP, has certain limitations on their ability to engage. The switch won't get flipped and suddenly everyone goes on a rampage. What it will mean, however, is that the danger and thrill of PVP will be back and the admin will be happy so that mortals can police themselves once more.
There we have it. Vampires want to be Genesis Police and scare everyone once they can cling to us again? Please tell me I misunderstood that. No really, I really hope that is not what you meant.
I was referring to the Fire Knives. I know you have a very myopic view of the game and are very scared of Vampires, but it is not us you should fear...

It seems from your posts that what you're truly looking for is a single-player game where you can "very attentively" grind to your heart's content. I'm sorry, this just isn't it. It never was, and it never will be.

TaranGoatWalker
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Re: Crowd control

Post by TaranGoatWalker » 30 Apr 2023 22:56

Surely the very attentive of Quantum's size have little to fear from attack with CC?
Stabby stabby stab stab.

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Cherek
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Re: Crowd control

Post by Cherek » 01 May 2023 03:14

Drazson wrote:
30 Apr 2023 09:21
You can already attack them. If they are afkbots (which I assume is your problem) you will get them without any crowd control :)

What I understand from the conversation is that people want the -certainty- that their target will not flee while they statcheck them to death.

All that in a PvE game, as it has been established by the players with scores of npcs killed daily for 30 years while in at least the latest 13 or so of those years player deaths to pvp are top news since it basically N E V E R happens (let's discount sparkle rats yeah?). Hell, we nod at eachother while grinding and if someone doesn't have a good enough pathing routine to skip the room when others are already grinding there that's all the contention there is.

I think it would be reasonable to drop the death penalty a bit, see how people respond (attacking people more freely without worrying about the recover tallies AS much). If people get into PvP I think we can go back to talking about CC more, and do it more collectively and being more realistically informed about it.
Excellent post, and it pretty much sums up how I feel regarding this too. Let's adjust the death penalty first, and see what kind of effect that will have on people's willingness to fight each other. While you players experiment with that, we can try to untangle the current CC mess and try to figure out how it can be made _fun_ for everyone.

One thing that I very strongly believe in is that we should either provide good CCs to everyone or to nobody. The difference between the rather tame "block" skill, and the best CCs some guilds offered before was gigantic, and that could never be a fun system (which is why they remain off). I know some of you feel that part of the charm with Genesis is that it IS unbalanced and that there are big differences between races (until recently), guilds, abilities, etc. But we have to make a choice here, either we stick to that rather obsolete game design and call it "charming and quirky", or we move a little bit more towards how modern games work when it comes to players vs player combat/competition.

In my opinion, movement hindering abilities must be available to all or none, and there should be very little difference in how effective they are. Yes, certain guilds could have a SMALL edge here, but it must be small. If a global CC everyone has access to can keep you from moving for, lets say 5 seconds, perhaps specialists like the FK or Knights should be able to do it for 6 or 7. A small edge, but that's it. With the old CCs it was a couple of seconds (at best) for the global block vs 1 minute or more for the best CCs a few guilds used. That's no fun.

This doesn't mean all CCs must be a version of block, though. They can still be quite different in how they work and look, as long as the overall effect is roughly equal. However, the simplest solution, in my opinion, would be to make "block" block all exits (as someone else also mentioned earlier), and just give some guilds a slightly higher block skill. And that's it. Remove all other CC's. That would ensure it's fair, but would give some PVP specialist guilds a small edge. And since it's just one ability we can easily control how big or small this edge should be.

Would it be more "boring"? Yes, definitely. But it's also relatively easy to implement, so it could realistically happen relatively soon, and it would ensure nobody has anything but a very small edge when it comes to hindering movement. In a perfect world, I think the unique and quite cool abilities some guilds have should stay, but I am also worried that, no matter how much we test and tweak, it will be quite hard to achieve a good balance when the abilities are so different. And will "cool" abilities truly make PVP in Genesis more fun compared to having one "boring" ability everyone can get? If I can't have both, I'd go for the balanced and safe approach here.

Now, of course there are more problems to solve than CCs when it comes to improving PVP in Genesis, death is one of them for sure, but there are other areas where there is room for improvement as well. But that's for another topic (or several).

Budwise
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Re: Crowd control

Post by Budwise » 01 May 2023 07:51

Well, having been on the receiving end of stacking DA-dragon stuns back in the day boring sounds fine.

Dan
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Re: Crowd control

Post by Dan » 01 May 2023 15:55

'Easy' pvp kills that then makes the victim having to spend 3+ months to recover, just for being 'Easily' pvp killed again for another 3 months of grinding... just seems off balance. the 'Easier' it is to kill someone, the less the death penalty should be.

Current system its very hard to kill someone, and it takes very long time to recover - thus right now the game is balanced in effort of kill vs effort of recovery..., move that balance, both sides of the equation needs to move.

And I forgot who posted but he was right - casters have to have much more preparations for grinding ,thus maybe make their ingredients/component packs remain thru death to even the impact vs melee who can just pick a new weapon and go. (not counting imbues etc, which is equal on both to maintain)

TaranGoatWalker
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Re: Crowd control

Post by TaranGoatWalker » 01 May 2023 20:01

Dan wrote:
01 May 2023 15:55
'Easy' pvp kills that then makes the victim having to spend 3+ months to recover, just for being 'Easily' pvp killed again for another 3 months of grinding... just seems off balance. the 'Easier' it is to kill someone, the less the death penalty should be.

Current system its very hard to kill someone, and it takes very long time to recover - thus right now the game is balanced in effort of kill vs effort of recovery..., move that balance, both sides of the equation needs to move.

And I forgot who posted but he was right - casters have to have much more preparations for grinding ,thus maybe make their ingredients/component packs remain thru death to even the impact vs melee who can just pick a new weapon and go. (not counting imbues etc, which is equal on both to maintain)
Will hybrids keep components?
Stabby stabby stab stab.

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Cherek
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Re: Crowd control

Post by Cherek » 01 May 2023 22:41

Dan wrote:
01 May 2023 15:55
'Easy' pvp kills that then makes the victim having to spend 3+ months to recover, just for being 'Easily' pvp killed again for another 3 months of grinding... just seems off balance. the 'Easier' it is to kill someone, the less the death penalty should be.

Current system its very hard to kill someone, and it takes very long time to recover - thus right now the game is balanced in effort of kill vs effort of recovery..., move that balance, both sides of the equation needs to move.

And I forgot who posted but he was right - casters have to have much more preparations for grinding ,thus maybe make their ingredients/component packs remain thru death to even the impact vs melee who can just pick a new weapon and go. (not counting imbues etc, which is equal on both to maintain)
Yes, like both me and Zizuph have mentioned, for CCs to reappear in any shape or form we first need to adjust death. If killing becomes easier, and requires less prep time, the punishment for losing in PVP much also be smaller. But not so small that you don't even try to avoid dying. Death should always be someone you would prefer not to meet, however, if you do meet him you shouldn't want to quit the game either. Finding the sweetspot is of course hard, but I think there is a pretty big consensus among both players and wizards that the curent penalty, especially at myth+ sizes, simply is too harsh.

qwertheangmarim
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Re: Crowd control

Post by qwertheangmarim » 09 May 2023 14:54

Cherek wrote:
01 May 2023 22:41
Yes, like both me and Zizuph have mentioned, for CCs to reappear in any shape or form we first need to adjust death. If killing becomes easier, and requires less prep time, the punishment for losing in PVP much also be smaller. But not so small that you don't even try to avoid dying. Death should always be someone you would prefer not to meet, however, if you do meet him you shouldn't want to quit the game either. Finding the sweetspot is of course hard, but I think there is a pretty big consensus among both players and wizards that the curent penalty, especially at myth+ sizes, simply is too harsh.
Been a lil over a week, any news?
WOOH LETS GO!!!!! :P

Quantum
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Re: Crowd control

Post by Quantum » 12 May 2023 01:13

Rache wrote:
30 Apr 2023 22:52
Quantum wrote:
29 Apr 2023 22:48
Rache wrote:
28 Apr 2023 12:48
So quickly people forget that most of the best PVPers are currently in a guild that while being designed for PVP, has certain limitations on their ability to engage. The switch won't get flipped and suddenly everyone goes on a rampage. What it will mean, however, is that the danger and thrill of PVP will be back and the admin will be happy so that mortals can police themselves once more.
There we have it. Vampires want to be Genesis Police and scare everyone once they can cling to us again? Please tell me I misunderstood that. No really, I really hope that is not what you meant.
I was referring to the Fire Knives. I know you have a very myopic view of the game and are very scared of Vampires, but it is not us you should fear...

It seems from your posts that what you're truly looking for is a single-player game where you can "very attentively" grind to your heart's content. I'm sorry, this just isn't it. It never was, and it never will be.
First things first - No I don't think I have anything to fear from the fire knives. I don't know why I should have?

Second - Not afraid of vampires. I have fought most of the ones currently active and no, they do not scare me. They annoy me. That is something completely different.

Third - No I am not looking for a single player game. 99% of my time is spent with friends. I detest walking alone. [Personal attacks provide nothing to this conversation and are not necessary]

Fourth - You should stop calling everyone bots. I think that you think, that if you just drop that bomb, all your arguments are suddenly valid. They are not.

Fifth - You make a very bold statement that this game was never a friendly place to hang out with your friends, peacefully, and it never will. [Again - Personal attacks] - Cherek is. so maybe this is more adressed to him and not you?

If you disagree, by all means, lets discuss. [Not necessary]

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