The problem with "half"

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nils
Titan
Posts: 458
Joined: 22 Jul 2016 17:13

The problem with "half"

Post by nils » 13 May 2023 13:20

Since the global adjustments to damage was launched I’ve been closely monitoring the forum, hoping someone else would speak so that I could avoid arguing from a position of bias. Cause in this particular case I stand to personally gain from a re-think/adjustment to the new damage reality.

I expect someone.. no, many, to completely fail in putting their personal distrust aside, thereby refusing to acknowledge the fact that the current system punishes everyone unequally for the sole reason that the argument is made by someone who potentially stands to gain from the case he argues.

I’ll take comfort in the fact that I’m not the only one who stands to benefit. Hell, I’d argue the game itself stands to benefit. But I’m getting ahead of myself – Why is halving the global damage output unfair? Unequal punishment?
The problem with removing half from anything, everyone or everything is that while it may appear very fair, it isn’t. Quite the contrary - it’s fundamentally unfair and here’s why:

Imagine two guys, Billy and Bob. Without painting a big narrative of how they each got their salary, let’s just take round numbers for easy math - Billy makes 10 platinum coins per week while Bob makes 50 platinum coins per week. Suddenly a big yellow scythe drops down from the sky and slashes both their salaries in half.

Billy now only makes 5 platinum coins and Bob only makes 25 platinum coins. They both lost half and both suffer some sort of reduction in their quality of life and all that, but from a point of fairness the big yellow scythe completely ignores the fact that while Billy lost only 5 platinum, Bob lost five times as much!

Yes, he still has more, but in this allegory what’s really changed is the difference between Billy and Bob. They are much more equal now, and from an economic (socialist) standpoint, halving everyone’s resources will indeed reduce inequality.

However, Genesis isn’t base home economics! It’s a game where everyone’s a hero, where in order to be the greatest hero one seeks out the means to excel and where one can achieve said excellence in several ways. Some guilds excel in their damage output, and in our economic allegory above, they are the Bob’s of damage. Then there are guilds who, while providing a weaker damage output, make up for their shortcomings by offering something else. They are the Billy’s of damage.

When only adjusting the total damage output and keeping everything else equal, the result is, like our socialist model, less inequality of damage. Or said plainly, guilds who specialize in high damage output have lost way more (25 platinums) than guilds who didn’t (only 5 platinums).

Conclusion
Guilds like the Calian Warriors used to be attractive team members because of their high damage contribution from behind (Yes, yes.. us backstabbers too). They still are, but now an equal sized Mercenary and said Calian (or backstabber) are more similar, similar to such a degree that there’s no perceived difference anymore. Why suffer the cons of a highly specialized guild, when the pros don’t make up for it? Why face restrictions bordering on unplayable for potentially long periods at a time, but when its finally your time to shine, your “excellence” is more or less matched by the vanilla option?

While the apparent vision of a balanced game is both commendable and even a desirable outcome in many scenarios, it seems pertinent to remind the powers that be of the difference between vision and sight and between balance and genericism. I kindly ask that they mind the uniqueness that is Genesis and build upon it, rather than tearing it down in a crusade for a utopian nightmare of boredom and single digit “who”-lists.

Now I’ve spent a lot of time and unnecessary words to describe what I think is wrong and I hope I’ve come across as well-meaning and non-aggressive while doing so. What remains is the/a/my suggested approach to maintain the desired slower growth rate/combat pace, and it would be to look to history and dare repeat it!

Option one
In the decades prior to the first equalization of white hits and special attacks (you know, that time when things hurt a lot, combat was fast, pvp was dangerous and the experience river flooded its banks regularly), special attacks REALLY mattered. Is there any way to return to a situation where special attacks make a much more significant impact than white hits, while simultaneously keeping the snail’s paced fights (that I was told was the end goal)?

If possible/doable, it would make guilds more different from each other. Guilds who are more significantly different logically equals increased desirability for their excellence/specialty and subsequently yields rewards worth the work, effort and other cons one must suffer to reap them.

Said plainly: Same syrup-y combat speed. Harder specials. Weaker white hits. Like before!

Option two
Reverting to the fast paced combat (that we were accustomed to a few months back, and I personally think was kind of fun), but instead of halving global damage, halve experience gain per kill. It would not only re-differentiate guilds, but also re-introduce some much needed overall danger - cause right now, Genesis has never been safer and frankly, it feels foreign, alien.

Said plainly: High damage. Fast combat speed. More danger. Less experience/same experience as we’re currently ‘enjoying’ (Yes, yes.. I agree, the growth was getting out of hand).

Obvious cons
Should the game experience a future influx of returning/new players, option one equals a “bigger” game due to the time it takes to clear an area, whereas option two oppositely shrinks it.

Then again, a smaller game means more competition, more competition might mean more interaction and interaction is a good thing, yes?
Nil Mortifi Sine Lucre

Thalric
Rising Hero
Posts: 343
Joined: 14 Jun 2016 16:34

Re: The problem with "half"

Post by Thalric » 13 May 2023 20:40

In terms of getting new players up to speed and size, make some kind of experience bonus to people from apprentice to champion, which diminishes over time.
Sort of like a diminished, but invisible, brute level.
Should go ever down per kill, as brutality, until champion so progress doesn't feel like it came to a complete stop.

qwertheangmarim
Adventurer
Posts: 98
Joined: 27 May 2022 14:30

Re: The problem with "half"

Post by qwertheangmarim » 13 May 2023 20:46

Thalric wrote:
13 May 2023 20:40
In terms of getting new players up to speed and size, make some kind of experience bonus to people from apprentice to champion, which diminishes over time.
Sort of like a diminished, but invisible, brute level.
Should go ever down per kill, as brutality, until champion so progress doesn't feel like it came to a complete stop.
That is a solid plan, 100% would support
WOOH LETS GO!!!!! :P

TaranGoatWalker
Great Adventurer
Posts: 191
Joined: 04 Aug 2020 23:23
Location: Somewhere

Re: The problem with "half"

Post by TaranGoatWalker » 13 May 2023 21:00

I don't think the solution to our problems is faster growth for newbies...
Stabby stabby stab stab.

qwertheangmarim
Adventurer
Posts: 98
Joined: 27 May 2022 14:30

Re: The problem with "half"

Post by qwertheangmarim » 14 May 2023 21:34

TaranGoatWalker wrote:
13 May 2023 21:00
I don't think the solution to our problems is faster growth for newbies...
What if... wonky proposal, we *slow* growth from wanderer to veteran, then speed growth from veteran to champion?
People could use way more time with newbie pins, and slowing growth would give that
WOOH LETS GO!!!!! :P

TaranGoatWalker
Great Adventurer
Posts: 191
Joined: 04 Aug 2020 23:23
Location: Somewhere

Re: The problem with "half"

Post by TaranGoatWalker » 14 May 2023 21:37

Is growth vet -> champ a problem?
Stabby stabby stab stab.

qwertheangmarim
Adventurer
Posts: 98
Joined: 27 May 2022 14:30

Re: The problem with "half"

Post by qwertheangmarim » 14 May 2023 21:41

TaranGoatWalker wrote:
14 May 2023 21:37
Is growth vet -> champ a problem?
Catching up to supermyths, as I'm sure you've noticed, is a daunting task, the idea is to ease it up, while it's still a challenge
I mean, we've both been at it for years, and we're still incredibly small in the grand scheme of things
WOOH LETS GO!!!!! :P

TaranGoatWalker
Great Adventurer
Posts: 191
Joined: 04 Aug 2020 23:23
Location: Somewhere

Re: The problem with "half"

Post by TaranGoatWalker » 14 May 2023 21:51

qwertheangmarim wrote:
14 May 2023 21:41
TaranGoatWalker wrote:
14 May 2023 21:37
Is growth vet -> champ a problem?
Catching up to supermyths, as I'm sure you've noticed, is a daunting task, the idea is to ease it up, while it's still a challenge
I mean, we've both been at it for years, and we're still incredibly small in the grand scheme of things
Yeah, but the hard part is myth -> myth++, no?
I don't like the idea of making any mortal progress/stat progression/progression easier, really.
Maybe that's just me.
Stabby stabby stab stab.

qwertheangmarim
Adventurer
Posts: 98
Joined: 27 May 2022 14:30

Re: The problem with "half"

Post by qwertheangmarim » 15 May 2023 01:21

TaranGoatWalker wrote:
14 May 2023 21:51
Yeah, but the hard part is myth -> myth++, no?
I don't like the idea of making any mortal progress/stat progression/progression easier, really.
Maybe that's just me.
It is, I believe, but eery bit helps
And I can't say I'm surprised, you always seemed more old school gamer (=
WOOH LETS GO!!!!! :P

Quantum
Adept
Posts: 131
Joined: 22 Aug 2019 19:33

Re: The problem with "half"

Post by Quantum » 24 May 2023 00:19

Another problem is that combat is now somewhat boring. It used to be that you actually had to watch fights, now you can go take a nap, make some coffee and the rat your fighting on the docks is still alive and laughing at your damage output.

I rather liked the changes to white hits that made everything more dangerous and somewhat interesting.

And as Nils pointed out, you cut damage in half, but guilds that focus on healing didn't loose anything? So healing guilds suddenly had a much easier time fighting through things. Seems unfair. Cut healing and regeneration in half?

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