The problem with "half"

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qwertheangmarim
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Re: The problem with "half"

Post by qwertheangmarim » 24 May 2023 17:26

Drazson wrote:
24 May 2023 17:02
A warlock is healing me right this second being very careful about their enhancers and I see the same 1.75. They went twice for one level even, which means even less.

Maybe casters with focused mentals are exceedingly better than the rest of us, at least comapred to the past. Mentals scaling! Would make sense.
Warlock heal is prolly the worst of the layman magic heals
WOOH LETS GO!!!!! :P

TaranGoatWalker
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Re: The problem with "half"

Post by TaranGoatWalker » 24 May 2023 21:46

qwertheangmarim wrote:
24 May 2023 17:26
Drazson wrote:
24 May 2023 17:02
A warlock is healing me right this second being very careful about their enhancers and I see the same 1.75. They went twice for one level even, which means even less.

Maybe casters with focused mentals are exceedingly better than the rest of us, at least comapred to the past. Mentals scaling! Would make sense.
Warlock heal is prolly the worst of the layman magic heals
With high mentals it's basically the same as most layman magic heals.
E.g. Sohm lock heals wayyy better than aa lock
Stabby stabby stab stab.

qwertheangmarim
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Re: The problem with "half"

Post by qwertheangmarim » 24 May 2023 22:23

TaranGoatWalker wrote:
24 May 2023 21:46
With high mentals it's basically the same as most layman magic heals.
E.g. Sohm lock heals wayyy better than aa lock
Obviously, but the key word there is still basically, and even that I'd argue
WOOH LETS GO!!!!! :P

zizuph
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Re: The problem with "half"

Post by zizuph » 27 May 2023 23:17

Quantum wrote:
24 May 2023 00:19
Another problem is that combat is now somewhat boring. It used to be that you actually had to watch fights, now you can go take a nap, make some coffee and the rat your fighting on the docks is still alive and laughing at your damage output.

I rather liked the changes to white hits that made everything more dangerous and somewhat interesting.

And as Nils pointed out, you cut damage in half, but guilds that focus on healing didn't loose anything? So healing guilds suddenly had a much easier time fighting through things. Seems unfair. Cut healing and regeneration in half?
Healing was cut in the same way as damage.

Also, HP healed per casting is tied to the number of rounds that the heal takes to cast. So a caster with a slow casting speed will see bigger health jumps, even if the health/second is the same versus other guilds. You cannot directly compare all healers against each other, since the casting speed matters. Lay healers are largely at the same levels in terms of combat aid.

Faster regeneration relatively speaking is intentional, in order to reduce the disparity between those with heal, and those without.

zizuph
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Re: The problem with "half"

Post by zizuph » 28 May 2023 00:54

nils wrote:
13 May 2023 13:20

Option one
In the decades prior to the first equalization of white hits and special attacks (you know, that time when things hurt a lot, combat was fast, pvp was dangerous and the experience river flooded its banks regularly), special attacks REALLY mattered. Is there any way to return to a situation where special attacks make a much more significant impact than white hits, while simultaneously keeping the snail’s paced fights (that I was told was the end goal)?

If possible/doable, it would make guilds more different from each other. Guilds who are more significantly different logically equals increased desirability for their excellence/specialty and subsequently yields rewards worth the work, effort and other cons one must suffer to reap them.

Said plainly: Same syrup-y combat speed. Harder specials. Weaker white hits. Like before!
As has been discussed before, the white hit to guild ratios as 100/100/50. In the past they were potentially as high as 100/ 250/125, since one point of offensive combat aid ended up giving effectively 2.5 points of actual gain. Those guilds that bought high into offense (like Calians) got quite a bit more benefit than those that did not.

We could in theory change the 100/100/50 ratio to give occupational and layman guilds more combat aid to play with. This would require going through every single guild and redoing their tax calculations, bonuses, etc. But that would make specials hit harder.

It would make the game against NPCs easier - if you're doing 50% more damage from white hits, and they are not, then you will be able to kill faster than them, relatively.

However, that would not bring back a game where Calians and backstabbers have some significant benefit. Everyone still has the same pool, and the rising tide would lift all boats equally.

In order for that old difference to come back, the Calians and backstabbers would need some free gift for them that nobody else gets. The requirement of a second teammate for free combat aid does not balance easily, as the Calians have seen in various iterations throughout the decades (eg. maul).
nils wrote:
13 May 2023 13:20

Option two
Reverting to the fast paced combat (that we were accustomed to a few months back, and I personally think was kind of fun), but instead of halving global damage, halve experience gain per kill. It would not only re-differentiate guilds, but also re-introduce some much needed overall danger - cause right now, Genesis has never been safer and frankly, it feels foreign, alien.

Said plainly: High damage. Fast combat speed. More danger. Less experience/same experience as we’re currently ‘enjoying’ (Yes, yes.. I agree, the growth was getting out of hand).

Obvious cons
Should the game experience a future influx of returning/new players, option one equals a “bigger” game due to the time it takes to clear an area, whereas option two oppositely shrinks it.

Then again, a smaller game means more competition, more competition might mean more interaction and interaction is a good thing, yes?
There are too many reasons not to undo this latest change, even with reduced experience tables. I think we may do an update so you can see more progress steps going forwards, so the enjoyment of progress is more visible again.

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Snowrose
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Re: The problem with "half"

Post by Snowrose » 02 Jun 2023 10:14

In some ways i have tried to put this into words, the flat half is problematic for that exact reason though.
not equally. the damage scaling was not a straight 90° angle and each guild who had some ups and downs had a slightly different curve.

for example archery is now hella good almost Op between vet-champ then kinda becomes awful cause its extra damage to account for high mis rate was halved but it appears the miss rate wasn't adjusted. I'm told myths have miss rate almost as high as me.

Healing is taking a hit both from the global nerf, and the fact it needs an enhancer. so it also has some scaling problems at high levels. especially for non magic guilds that use weaker enhancers.

on the other hand tanking is better off, the current system is way better for low - midrange.

--------------------------

I don't think a reversal is the way to go, we don't need to take steps backwards, people put a lot of work into this. and its not that bad, it just needs some tweaks.

I think it may be an idea to see what guilds/wepon types are being the most effected to add some upper level str or dex bonuses to some weapons types.

doesn't need to be dps based, you could lower miss rates, or raise parry/defense effectiveness with lesser used wepon types, add some haste like bonuses into small one handed weapons with less dps.

maybe have a % bonus based on stats so heals scale better at higher levels. (if you don't already)

maybe give more team buff options for social guilds, especially when in mixed guild teams. to encourage more social in general.

these are just ideas since i don't know how it works under the hood. and i don't think the current situation is unfixable, it's actually been pretty nice for me personally, less damage by mobs means i can grind with less stress, even if it takes longer, but I want high level people to be happy to. and i hate to see other guilds suffer.

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Skythus
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Re: The problem with "half"

Post by Skythus » 06 Jun 2023 04:01

Is there not a Nils post in existence that isn't a swing and a home run? Hits too hard being in a VLCOL area with no jobs.

I think that a lot of these changes are great on paper but don't "feel" right. I can remember getting back in after a hiatus and being able to solo Cair Andros in less than an hour. Was getting a fanta a day with 1-2 hours of solo grind since timezones don't match guild (or maybe magic guilds are stlil dead). Life came up and I took a break for a few months, now I'm getting bullied at warplains and curb stomped by dwarf merchants.

I'm sure there's an optimal way to stack my spell book to adjust to the new meta but it's demoralizing having to test all the combos again when I was previously getting sweet progresses with the same setup.

Goirbagh
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Re: The problem with "half"

Post by Goirbagh » 06 Jun 2023 07:11

Skythus wrote:
06 Jun 2023 04:01
I think that a lot of these changes are great on paper but don't "feel" right.
That's generally the problem with almost all attempts to push equality. It seems great on paper, but in reality, you are just making everything less interesting and feel not-right.

I don't play anymore because all of these changes made me feel it isn't fun anymore. Here's my take on how to make the game interesting:

1. Attract more players (it doesn't matter if it takes ages to grow strong, if you have a population that can work together on the sort-of-same level).
2. Make magic and magic items insanely rare.
3. Make guilds MUCH harder to join, especially magic ones
4. Throw the "everyone is a hero" mindset into the bin
5. Make specials much stronger
6. Create incentives for pvp
7. Make the world dangerous, unexpected and interesting

Who in their right mind plays a game for an absolutely linear and safe experience? This is modern thinking that we see everywhere today and I absolutely despise it.

What are your greatest memories from Genesis? Go ahead and ask yourselves. Likely, it isn't grinding orcs for hours, but more likely embarking on a quest, some travels, meeting some unexpected monster, being killed by it or, in the best of worlds, defeating it and having a super rare item to brag to everyone about, and tell the story about how you killed that monster.

Making the outcome of every turn safe, linear and risk-calculated makes the outcome absolutely uninteresting. But yeah, I don't even play anymore so...

Goirbagh
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Re: The problem with "half"

Post by Goirbagh » 06 Jun 2023 07:14

Quantum wrote:
24 May 2023 00:19
And as Nils pointed out, you cut damage in half, but guilds that focus on healing didn't loose anything? So healing guilds suddenly had a much easier time fighting through things. Seems unfair. Cut healing and regeneration in half?
This is why you should never start implementing equality "fixes". You will just end up with "but what about x, that isn't equal now" until everything is the same.

Thalric
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Re: The problem with "half"

Post by Thalric » 06 Jun 2023 09:32

Skythus wrote:
06 Jun 2023 04:01
Life came up and I took a break for a few months, now I'm getting bullied at warplains and curb stomped by dwarf merchants.
Yes, magic has been fucked over.
First there was a cap on how high mentals could be used for spellpower. Then that was removed and damage went up for the biggies.
Now a bunch of other stuff has been put in so damage is back to sort of where it was, while melee hasn't been equally downgraded.
Which is why occ magic guild are still more or less dead.

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