Darkness.

[Quantum]

Greetings donut-dwellers,

After reading Galen and Chereks' notes on the Sparkle board and discussing the topic in the Genesis Discord, I thought it would be a good idea to gather some of the thoughts and ideas presented.

On the side of people who think there is an issue with darkness, the following changes have been made over the past few years:

• Glowing holy armours can no longer give light unless worn. Some people cannot wear these armours and it is a definite reduction in the possible amount of light since you are now limited to the locations the armours are worn.

• The feather of Nathla no longer provides unlimited light.

• The sparkling gem from Kabal no longer provides unlimited light.

• Mittikna herbs no longer provide unlimited light.

• War gems no longer provide unlimited light.

On the side of light being added to the game we have:

• Nothing? If anyone can provide me with permanent light that has been added recently, then I will update this post.

On the neutral side we have:

• Sacred silver lamp - Provides light and darkness.

• Golden Gloves/boots. Provides light and darkness, but cannot be used by everyone.

To be absolutely clear I am not claiming that the current Genesis management is incompetent or part of a conspiracy. On the contrary I think they are actually trying to make the game better. Provided above is a list of removed light. There is no removed darkness. Which has allowed darkness blobs of 10+ levels of darkness to infest the game. They prevent playing the game as everything stops when you cannot see anything in a room. You cannot use banks, board boats, fight enemies, loot corpses, talk to specific persons. The game just stops.

The counter this, I have several ideas.

You could set the maximum level of darkness to 2. This would still keep undeads from burning in the sun, people can still attack groups and only fight them one at a time - But if these darkness blobs, now reduced to 2 levels of darkness, walk into a town, it will be easy for most people to light enough torches to see what is going on and continue playing the game.

While keeping the darkness at 2 levels, I would also suggest removing torchstones. This means that only races or guilds that can see in the dark, can use darkness constructively. Purposely disregarding monks here. This will increase the value of darkvision/scotopic vision in these guilds/races and give that more meaning. This should also limit the number of darkness blobs moving around on the Donut.

I also want to make it clear that this is not an anti-vampire post. I don't want vampires to be changed at all. I am only focussed on darkness itself. Regardless of who is using it.

Please add your ideas.

With best regards,
Quantum

[Euphoria]

If you're having trouble seeing in the dark, why don't you just get some dark vision?

[TaranGoatWalker]

Mittikna herbs...

...over the past few years...

No, about a decade ago.

With regards to what you're saying, surely, if we cap darkness, we should cap lightness also? Wouldn't be fair otherwise.

And I believe we're missing something rather important

The easiest way to counter darkness is still available, along with ever-lasting versions of it if one is clever

[Quantum]

Quite right, people can invest in darkvision. But why should everyone be forced to invest in that?

Limiting the light levels to 2 would also be an idea. But why?

[TaranGoatWalker]

Quite right, people can invest in darkvision. But why should everyone be forced to invest in that?

Limiting the light levels to 2 would also be an idea. But why?

The why is what I say to what you say of darkness - for vamps, it is just as essential as lightness is for you.

[Quantum]

Is it essential to have 10 levels of darkness, or is 1 enough to prevent sunburn?

[TaranGoatWalker]

Is it essential to have 10 levels of darkness, or is 1 enough to prevent sunburn?

Is it essential to have ten levels of light, or is one enough to see?

[Quantum]

Why are you asking something I did not put in my note? It seems like you are trying very hard to misdirect the conversation. I have never asked for 10 levels of light, so why ask about that? For the record, no I do not need 10 levels of light. 1 is fine.

[Archie]

Hello,

here's my thoughts:

If vampires seem to be one issue (not the only one probably), then my suggestion is that they get a spell (or similar) that lets them shroud themselves in darkness at a mana cost (with an upkeep that means they cannot keep it permanent, or whatever is balanced).
This has the benefit of not darkening the room, it still prevents them from taking damage from sunlight. I would probably ensure that the domains day/night time affects when this ability would need to be active, although of course they could probably have it on even when not needed.
In terms of what others see, it can be similar to the various robes/cloaks that a lot of guild have these days.

When it comes to darkness in itself, some areas are naturally dark (like caves). The problem here is two-fold. One is you can't see where you are (i.e. descriptions). The second one is combat.
When it comes to combat, to fight in the dark, we have blind-fighting. But my guess is that blind-fighting is never better than fighting with light. So blind-fighting is only really good if the opponent also cannot fight in the dark.

Second thing is dark vision (or whatever you want to call it). Essentially seeing in the (natural) dark. I don't know exactly which races should have this, but generally in the RP games I've played, various races have had it to an extent (generally depends on setting). If too many have it, then basically it is worthless however.
How to best manage darkness is probably to have different levels of dark, going from normal light to pitch black, with maybe two levels in between. For those with no dark vision, any darkness is always pitch black. For those with dark vision, this could be like an inverse awareness, so you see less and less descriptions the darker it gets, down to pitch black. So if someone has dark vision (level one) they would essentially see like normal in the normal light plus the first level of darkness, but not the second level and pitch black. This would incur a stepwise penalty as well to combat (again aided by blind-fighting).

Torches/lamps are a way to counter darkness, and would aid the ones without dark vision to have the same effect (i.e. light up an area to get it into the light, basically like it does today).

The problem with all of the above is that light/dark in Genesis (please, wizards, correct me if I am wrong) is just the same thing. A cave gives darkness, a lamp gives light.
If we talk the vampire problem, if sunlight is what kills them, then perhaps five torchlights shouldn't (fire might, but not the light from the torches). But with light/dark being the same thing, we cannot differentiate.

So to solve this, I think we would have to have different types of light. Sun light, torch/lamp light, clerical light (which I would guess should damage undead).

Added to that, I think natural light/darkness needs to be different from magical light/darkness. No clue how to add or balance that though vs. natural light.

A few thoughts, maybe some wizard thinks the same/gets inspired.

Archie

PS. Not that it should matter, but my character uses light sources and I think the changes to holy armour when broken not giving off light is a good thing.

[Santetra]

Hi Quantum,

Your list of changes to light over the past few years neatly summarizes the
reason they were all made: unlimited light (or darkness) is a bug that must
be fixed. All games need a balanced faucet->drain economy in order to
avoid infinite accumulation of wealth, and this is a challenge that Genesis
continues to struggle with in several ways. Darkness items all have strict
limitations such as being worn, wielded, or held, limited time duration, or
require refueling and every change made to light items was simply enforcing
these same standards. In the short term it is not fun to accept these changes,
but they are important for the long term good of Genesis, in the same way that
we all accepted forever lasting items were unhealthy.

There are still plenty of ways to generate highly stackable light or obtain darkvision
for everyone including ogres, but there should always be costs and
limitations associated or the game economy is broken.

On the bright side of recent additions to Genesis, Arman's Theiwar dwarves
are an excellent example of new advantages for light wielders. Analysis has
been done on the overall availability of darkness and light effective areas
and the gaps identified where additional light-effective areas are most
needed. To this end I will be expanding on this concept in Emerald in the
coming year.

Thank you for caring about the game enough to voice your concerns! It's
difficult to know what kind of explanation is needed without the type of
detailed post that you provided.

Santetra


PS Keep the ideas coming, they can be very inspirational and you never know
what might end up in the game!