PvP in Genesis

[Earth]

I always thought FFA-PVP is one of the key things that makes Genesis fun... I cant be the only one?

Free for all PVP is something that has never been fun for me. This doesn't mean that I haven't participated in fights or have people try to assasinate my character.

Cherek, I see the point that you are trying to make, and I do accept that it is something that I accept as part of Genesis, especially having a character that is a knight, but I do make the choice to be part of the realms. I have had my share of player fights and assasination attempts on me, but that doesn't mean that it makes the game fun for me...

[Fourtcoer]

I really don't consider Genesis FFA pvp in the traditional sense. Genesis is relatively forgiving compared to most games, as it enables you to run and hide fairly easily.

Most other MUDs or MMOs I have played that allow playerkilling, even if there are level restrictions, there are way more tools to hunt you and slam you face first into the ground with no opportunity to get away. The MUD I played most in the past had a level restriction for PKing, but you got PKed ALL the time. You had to successfully "flee" (with a command) once engaged in combat, there were tons of abilities that inhibited your ability to flee, some classes could summon you directly, and people had a local tool to see exactly what room you were in. By comparison, Genesis is a cakewalk.

[Makfly]

You say most people leave because of PVP. Care to elaborate on that? How do you know that?

I only know what people express on this forum, and on alot of previous forums, in-game and out of game. Lots of people have been discouraged enough by Genesis PvP to grow sour on the game and leave. I've left because of frustrations with PvP in this game, even the OP of this thread have done it before.

But what do you suggest? How does PVP work in those games where it works so well then?

When it works bests is when it is Consensual. Balanced. Not gank-centric. Interactive. Genesis FFA PvP is neither of those.
Nothing about Genesis PvP is consensual. You say that if people don't want to participate in PvP, they can just relegate themselves to the Dragon Order, Gladiators or Mercenaries. People are not safe in those guilds at all, as the past have clearly shown, because anyone can get killed in any guild by someone entering your location and killing you without reason, without hesitation.
The Holm tried a bit to focus on that, but really the Holm are no special to any other locations in the game, because the game haven't gotten around to supporting any specific ruleset on consent before PvP.

When I want PvP I fire up the Starcraft 2 Beta, or Team Fortress 2, because here I get to experience PvP in a much, much, much more balanced manner, there is consent as the games are focused on just that PvP, so there is no grief. On top of that both are highly interactive their combat even if it is two different genres.
Genesis is not very interactive in it's combat at all, which is why we even have fairly simple scripts designed to do it for people.
On the other hand, if I started up Left 4 Dead 2, I'd be pretty pissed off if I was playing the Co-Op campaign, and someone logged on to the server and enabled friendly fire and started killing me. This, of course, because it's not what I signed up for. I wanted to play Co-Op, started a Co-Op game and expect to enjoy the game _with_ other players, not against them.
I am not saying that FFA PvP cannot work, because I think EVE is a perfect example of this, but it designed for that, with almost no other content, apart from FFA PvP.
Not like Genesis where there are vast amounts of places to explore, NPCs to best, quests to solve, books to read and the wizards have put alot of effort into giving people lots of roleplaying tools with emotes, guild structures etc, etc.
PvP in Genesis seems to be an afterthought, more than an area where the creators spend most of their time and efforts, where it seems to me, that you seem to think it is the games primary focus.
If you are right, I'd say most, if not all, wizards failed miserably by not spending their time and efforts on balancing the PvP, making combat more interactive and provide a structure for the PvP, as well as advertise the game as being FFA PvP and appeal to that FFA PvP segment of gamers (that also would want to play a text-based game).

Overall, what I want the most, is to have the Administration come out and tell us what kind of game they envision, once they eventually get around to fixing everything. You and I can go on and on about what _we_ think, but ultimately, it's the Admin that sets the course.
A clear answer would enable people to make a choice, and pack up, or stick around.
A clear answer would also enable first-time visitors to decide whether to invest in the game, or go find enjoyment somewhere else.

Unfortunately I have to leave for work now, and I could probably ramble on and on about this, but I hope you get my meaning.

I always thought FFA-PVP is one of the key things that makes Genesis fun... I cant be the only one?

Probably not, but I believe that you are vastly outnumbered, or rather used to be.

[Tarax the Terrible]

Did Creed get whacked recently?
I am surprised anyone caught him without his harem of elven wenches, who are actually his bodyguard.

Interesting idea which has reverted back to the pvp discussion I see...

Stop Fighting works reasonably well, its a little flawed. With started special attacks sometimes restarting the combat after peace falls being the problem so you often have to stop fighting numerous times, and leave the room if someone is close to death. It would be nice to see players who stop fighting being forced to be peaceful for 1 minute to stop this happening. It would also be nice to be able to both stop fighting when not in the same room. Replacing the stop fighting with a parley command sounds okay.

Or is there some other added functionality?

Currently I see parley as something without code, just simply a term in the players roleplay toolkit, a pre arranged meeting between opposing sides to try and come to terms, or perhaps pull off an assassination.

[Tarax the Terrible]

I am sure it's supposed to be a joyful funny teasing kick to the crotch of all AA's But to me it just sounds like whining the way you present it!.

Touché!!

I should of course have pointed out that from the very beginning,which I thought I did in an earlier post where I told Alorrana and Tarax that even if they lay Chamdin to rotten in some dark forest in Krynn I will always consider them friends.I have got way to much help as a newbie from them to be upset with them,but hey.. I just love to tease my friends in a friendly manner.

That should be Okay I think...

It would be good karma now for someone from the Dragonarmies to kill Chamdin, to prevent him getting a twisted view that AA are somehow "the bad guys."

Just teasing

[Amberlee]

Well if it was someone from the dragonarmies AND the AA? :p
You know.. like Art :p

[Cherek]

Makfly: I agree with most of what you are saying. I too would like a clear statement on which way we are going, but I think we have a pretty clear statement that the admin wants this to be a pvp game AND a co-op game AND a RP game, not one or the other like the games you use as examples. Atleast thats how I interepret it. However there seem to be much confusion amongst the players on what type of PVP is allowed and many seem to feel that it shouldnt be allowed at all... so yes. A super-clear clearification on this once and for all would probably be useful...

Personally I think thats the fun part, in Genesis the unexpected can happen.

I've had three chars during my 10+ years here. Two have been participating in pfights alot, and spending most of their time in guilds that pfight. The third char has never been in a pfight and stayed in a netrual guild all the time. Actively making sure not to take sides. From my experience it works since Ive never ever been attacked or attacked anyone with that char. Of course, as you say, there is the risk of being randomly killed but its not a huge of a risk really, it cant be since I havent been attacked yet, or am I just very lucky? I dont know, I can just speak from my own experience of course. I think the risk can be greatly lowered by actually playing a char that wants to stay out of fights, but many dont, they play in guilds with guildmates that pfights, in guilds that oppose others guilds by code, and if not that, they assist their friends in those guilds. After they get "unfarily killed" they whine alot when they get killed because they dont like pfighting... I think that is a big problem too. The constant whining about getting killed, pkilling someone has gone from being something very natural to something considered by the population as almost illegal and something the killer should be ashamed of... It's not good.

I am always for a better pvp system though. I do not believe in making it restricted to certain areas and certain players, but I think if we had some working war/peace system between guilds, and working fun war areas, the pfighting loving players would automatically go to those guilds and those areas since its simply a much more fun way to pfight. You'd never be completely safe of course, but I think it would be a good way to direct pfighters against eachothers in special areas, and the non-pfighters can stay out of those guilds and areas and for the most part be more or less safe.

Thats what Ive learned from game design atleast. Forbidding people to do things isnt a good way, however, directing players to do what you want by providing something _better_ is the way to go. In all parts of the game. Fed up with people botting? Dont forbid botting, provide a _better_ and more rewarding way to gain XP _without_ the need to bot. If raidning say a huge castle that takes both teamwork and preparation and cannot be done by bots would give more XP than the usual bot-grind then I am sure alot of people would chose that option. Same with pfighting.

Hm, lots of off topic now... Parlay... hm... No I still dont think anyone would use it as suggested. But perhaps as a system to set up rules of engegment for guilds vs guilds it could work?

[Makfly]

I don't agree with the notion that people that want to roleplay, quest or PvE in peace should just join the Gladiators, Mercenaries or Dragon Order and stop whining.
It is simply not fair, nor is it a useful suggestion, if the game wants to keep such players.
The 2 domains most rich in lore/history, and also the biggest domains in the game are Krynn and Middle Earth. Both domains that roleplayers would be/have been flocking to.
Roleplaying a character like in the books/movies are a big draw, and one of the very best selling points for the game, and it reserved for people interested in FFA PvP is like shooting yourself in the foot. It's not like you can actually play a Nazgul or a real Ranger of the North in the Lord of the Rings Online game!

No, if the game wants to draw in, and keep roleplayers and PvE interested players, the 2 main domains of the game needs to be open and welcoming to them.
Expanding massively on the War System and also putting it in place in Middle Earth, and then relegating most PvP to those areas would be step in the right directions.
I know some people here like to sneer at everything WoW, but their battlegrounds are exactly the solution to the same problem, of having a PvE game coexisting with a PvP game.
I think Genesis should learn from all types of games out there, so that it can appeal to the gamers of today, and hopefully reach Gorboth' goal of doubling the population, regardless of where the ideas come from.

The constant whining about getting killed, pkilling someone has gone from being something very natural to something considered by the population as almost illegal and something the killer should be ashamed of... It's not good.

From what I remember from the "old days" plenty of goodies whined and got restored. Many people didn't actually just take it in strides and played on happily, and rumours of corruption was widespread. Understandable, since most of the wizard dealings were done secretly.

But yea, once again, we're wait out in Off-Topic land, but atleast it's a fairly healthy discussion.

[Tarax the Terrible]

I really don't consider Genesis FFA pvp in the traditional sense. Genesis is relatively forgiving compared to most games, as it enables you to run and hide fairly easily.

Most other MUDs or MMOs I have played that allow playerkilling, even if there are level restrictions, there are way more tools to hunt you and slam you face first into the ground with no opportunity to get away. The MUD I played most in the past had a level restriction for PKing, but you got PKed ALL the time. You had to successfully "flee" (with a command) once engaged in combat, there were tons of abilities that inhibited your ability to flee, some classes could summon you directly, and people had a local tool to see exactly what room you were in. By comparison, Genesis is a cakewalk.

I played games like that too. But they all were easier to level up in & recover in a few hours etc. They also felt a lot more like a game and lacked the depth of connection to the character created via the roleplay Genesis is quite unique in having for me at least.

I agree escaping being killed in Gen is a cakewalk most of the time, if you opponents are just trying to fight with you.
But the majority of the population can still be executed fairly easily if you annoy the wrong / enough people. When you are vastly outnumbered, blind, trapped, poisoned etc things are suddenly a lot different.

[Tarax the Terrible]

I don't agree with the notion that people that want to roleplay, quest or PvE in peace should just join the Gladiators, Mercenaries or Dragon Order and stop whining.
It is simply not fair, nor is it a useful suggestion, if the game wants to keep such players.
The 2 domains most rich in lore/history, and also the biggest domains in the game are Krynn and Middle Earth. Both domains that roleplayers would be/have been flocking to.
Roleplaying a character like in the books/movies are a big draw, and one of the very best selling points for the game, and it reserved for people interested in FFA PvP is like shooting yourself in the foot. It's not like you can actually play a Nazgul or a real Ranger of the North in the Lord of the Rings Online game!

No, if the game wants to draw in, and keep roleplayers and PvE interested players, the 2 main domains of the game needs to be open and welcoming to them.
Expanding massively on the War System and also putting it in place in Middle Earth, and then relegating most PvP to those areas would be step in the right directions.
I know some people here like to sneer at everything WoW, but their battlegrounds are exactly the solution to the same problem, of having a PvE game coexisting with a PvP game.
I think Genesis should learn from all types of games out there, so that it can appeal to the gamers of today, and hopefully reach Gorboth' goal of doubling the population, regardless of where the ideas come from.

The constant whining about getting killed, pkilling someone has gone from being something very natural to something considered by the population as almost illegal and something the killer should be ashamed of... It's not good.

From what I remember from the "old days" plenty of goodies whined and got restored. Many people didn't actually just take it in strides and played on happily, and rumours of corruption was widespread. Understandable, since most of the wizard dealings were done secretly.

But yea, once again, we're wait out in Off-Topic land, but atleast it's a fairly healthy discussion.

I think the FFA PvP possibility is key to the realms feel/atmosphere.
Its a big bad world and removing that constant possibility for someone to take a dislike to you and settle it with their blade feels artificial and wrong.

But every time we have this discussion now it is going to come back to Rhynox's PacMan point.
At times people need space to play without feeling under constant threat.
That is sort of how it is already, if you have annoyed people recently and log in you can expect to be constantly scried, hunted etc.
When it dies down and blows over you can relax a bit more.

It is very strange how the population playing swings to extremes at times.
Like 3 weeks ago I logged on and saw nearly only goodies.
Last night for a change I saw majority evil.
I guess when people log in and see mainly enemies they are less likely to stay and play?
But is that because they are threatened or because they can't get a kill team going and don't fancy going solo grinding???

I agree it seems to be a good idea to have more Holm like areas where people go to fight.
With a design that has perhaps a few more choke points than the Krynnish plains... Quite exhausting to try and find anyone there.
"Problem" is then the grudges get started and people take it off the war plains..