View unanswered posts | View active topics It is currently 15 Dec 2018 12:30

Forum rules


- Use common sense and be respectful towards each other at all times, even when disagreeing.
- Do not reveal sensitive game information. Guild secrets, player seconds are examples of things not allowed.



Reply to topic  [ 32 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Stealing in Genesis 
Author Message
Wizard
User avatar

Joined: 22 Sep 2014 13:15
Posts: 458
Ydred wrote:
Depends on how this is implemented.

1) Evils need an OOC theif guild. Wouldnt want MM to be the only ones who suffer lost stuff.
Lets make sure to share this equally with the goodies also.

2) Spamming of steal shouldnt be possible. Extremely annoying to see a thief spam steal while you are in the process of mail and can see what happens but not quit out fast enough to stop them.

3) What you steal should affect how hard it is to pull off. Stealing a weapon might be easier than a suit of armour. Armour when moved tends to make alot of noise.

4) How much you steal should affect how hard it is to pull off. And there should be a maximum of any items you can steal at once, perhaps dependant on types of items. Coins you can steal much more of than say herbs or a stack of weapons.

We have been offered nothing though. Just that this will happen.

So flesh some of this out. Dont just implement it in game for the unbalance to ruin the fun for many.

And trust me the times you forget to wear an item or store some items and loose them is already annoying for most. But it is also true that it is our fault cause we forget to close containers etc. So not too annoying.

I just hope everyone gets to enjoy this fun. Especially the goodies, since Kenders are good, I would think they would steal from evils, of course kenders never steal really, they just 'could'. But that begs the question too.

And yes, there should be more protection than just awareness for theft. Much like Kit said.

Personally this will end up burning out all those who are stolen from is all I see. Worthless for the game as a whole. Especially since anyone under expert is probably new and will love this style of fun when starting game.
Just find that nice intense item .... but oh wait so fun to lose it before you get to AH. Ah fun for the thieves. Yippy. We can be the MMO who fights the norm. Sweetness!


1. Why? There are plenty of evil players with superior guru steal skills capable of doing everything as well as Kender can. More than there are active Kender, that is for sure.

2. It isn't. There is a cooldown.

3. Context, narrative, reality. That same person carrying around a suit of armour, realistically, should be incapable of fighting. There are lots of aspects of the game that require an element of suspended belief... Who really can carry around a dozen pole arms or suits of armour? Yes... I will agree that it would be nice to refine the realism, but I can't ever see it being a priority.

The way I see it, thieves are a dynamic that players simply aren't used to as they generally are very underpowered and not catered to in a game driven by the grind of the dps classes. Having played around with the thief guilds a little I think they are quite fun, but a long way from being OP.


05 Apr 2016 05:56
Profile
Rising Hero
User avatar

Joined: 16 Nov 2014 23:10
Posts: 342
If all my stuff gets stolen i get mad, and its very depressing.

When i get jumped and killed by others i get mad and its very depressing.

difference? Well, in my case more than one is needed to jump me, but this probably isnt true for all.

Boosted mechanics doesnt always feel balanced, when someone comes at you pumped with a years grinding worth of herbs and imbues


05 Apr 2016 06:24
Profile
Adept
User avatar

Joined: 03 Mar 2011 20:15
Posts: 134
I find it interesting that it appears that we are closer to unanimous as a player community in disliking having our character's stuff taken, than in anything else of which I can think at the moment.

It seems to color the discussion.

_________________
The preceding collection of words was presented by Strider's Player.
Any meaning you ascribe to them is most likely due to lucky happenstance or your misinterpretation.

If you'd prefer Strider's opinion, you'll probably have to ask for it in game.


05 Apr 2016 06:31
Profile
Veteran

Joined: 29 Nov 2013 02:53
Posts: 237
Quote:
2. It isn't. There is a cooldown.


I just had one about one month ago steal from me in exactly the manner listed. And when I checked my skills my awareness had gone up as a result. I was not able to leave the mail at the time. And they failed several times just spamming it til it was successful. Mostly it was possible cause I hadnt worn my items but the failings did not slow them down. So that is false as I just experienced it differently quite recently. I can even give you the thieves name if you like.

And I realize there is a suspension of reality in game or doing mummer flips with a pack full of swords and daggers would kill you. But that misses my point.

Anyway, have fun with the hate when it comes. Cause it will. This is just silly. Theft in game is already effective enough. It doesnt need to be increased. Some seem to imply they would like to see it fully gone even.

But sure, do what you want. It is a game you create and hopefully play. Maybe you enjoy such aspects. Most dont. In any MMO.

Anyway, nuff said. Bad idea but it will run.


05 Apr 2016 07:00
Profile
Adept
User avatar

Joined: 03 Mar 2011 20:15
Posts: 134
Prior to the thread cleave
Kas wrote:
Regarding using a button to eliminate a player from the battlefield entirely without even engagning him as part of a rock-paper-scissormodel,

...and also this
Kas wrote:
Strider, do you really defend the idea that someone can just push a button, and the enemy must go home to the guildhall to get a new weapon in order to be able to play or fight? Furthermore, do you even consider that as any meaningful gameplay?


Certainly this might have to do with my interest in the subject of player conflict and the Genesis community, but I keep finding myself tangling this up with some thoughts I've been trying to flesh out regarding player tendencies towards ganking and stacked decks, and how common other forms of PvP combat have become.

I guess a better answer is that there are a lot of parallels in how I think about mechanics of theft from the character container (and sub containers), and magic resistance. So, I think it's a problem that it's almost entirely a PvP issue, I am very much in favor of including both skill and pool based natural resistances, and I think this is another opportunity to make everyone more obviously MAD.

It's also the case that I don't see a whole lot of difference between loosing a bunch of my combat effectiveness due to having something stolen or having it broken, but at that point I think I'd prefer being forced from the battlefield over being planted in it.

Still, I am troubled by your implication that there is no character-challenge in the global thievery system, because while I can't see requiring a thief to initiate combat as part of initiating their theft special, it would be incredibly wrong if there was no character-build challenge built in.

It does feel like the game should offer some automatic responses on detection, including toggles for automatic combat initiation and whether to focus on recovering the possession being lifted or on detaining the thief. I could even see this resulting in situation where the victim is attempting combat against a still hidden and "not fighting" thief.

Now if you'll excuse me, my character needs to go buy some containers full of poison ivy and scorpions; I'll be disappointed if some thief doesn't get the whole stack.

_________________
The preceding collection of words was presented by Strider's Player.
Any meaning you ascribe to them is most likely due to lucky happenstance or your misinterpretation.

If you'd prefer Strider's opinion, you'll probably have to ask for it in game.


05 Apr 2016 08:15
Profile
Wizard
User avatar

Joined: 22 Sep 2014 13:15
Posts: 458
Ydred wrote:
Theft in game is already effective enough. It doesnt need to be increased. Some seem to imply they would like to see it fully gone even.


I'd probably agree on the first point. I think this conversation has been thrown off on a tangent by something Gorboth said about being able to steal from closed containers. That isn't on the tables afaik *poke Gorboth*. I think the sort of discussions we've had about expanding the role of thieves is more around expanding their role to be more functional in achieving goals. So wizards getting cleverer about how they code areas and boss fights to take into account thief skills - whether it is steal, disarm traps, acrobatics, secret rooms/chests with locks etc. So make the role of a thief less one dimensional and useful for teams, and give players reason to have occ/lay set ups that aren't just optimising dps/dps as default. But part of making it less one dimensional is also giving players anti-thief functionality if they are prepared enough. Pouches tied to belts is one example, worn backpacks etc... Expanding that sort of gear out... Mindful that by doing that there would be a trade-off in some other area.

Overall, our aim is provide more options for players, period. Expanding the sandbox and the gaming meta. You'll start to see more of that thinking with some of the new stuff in development (not just with thievery, but also magic use hopefully).

So that's why I won't agree with your last point :). I think removing it from the game removes a playing/interaction dimension, which is a bad outcome.


05 Apr 2016 09:37
Profile
Apprentice

Joined: 11 Mar 2016 10:02
Posts: 46
Arman wrote:
Ydred wrote:
Theft in game is already effective enough. It doesnt need to be increased. Some seem to imply they would like to see it fully gone even.


I'd probably agree on the first point. I think this conversation has been thrown off on a tangent by something Gorboth said about being able to steal from closed containers. That isn't on the tables afaik *poke Gorboth*. I think the sort of discussions we've had about expanding the role of thieves is more around expanding their role to be more functional in achieving goals. So wizards getting cleverer about how they code areas and boss fights to take into account thief skills - whether it is steal, disarm traps, acrobatics, secret rooms/chests with locks etc. So make the role of a thief less one dimensional and useful for teams, and give players reason to have occ/lay set ups that aren't just optimising dps/dps as default. But part of making it less one dimensional is also giving players anti-thief functionality if they are prepared enough. Pouches tied to belts is one example, worn backpacks etc... Expanding that sort of gear out... Mindful that by doing that there would be a trade-off in some other area.

Overall, our aim is provide more options for players, period. Expanding the sandbox and the gaming meta. You'll start to see more of that thinking with some of the new stuff in development (not just with thievery, but also magic use hopefully).

So that's why I won't agree with your last point :). I think removing it from the game removes a playing/interaction dimension, which is a bad outcome.


This sounds very promising and and could expand the rouge role quite a lot.
Perhaps you could even add a buff/debuff aspect or something like that, that only rouge guilds would bring to the fighting.


05 Apr 2016 10:18
Profile
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: 03 Mar 2010 20:51
Posts: 2272
Location: Some old coffin
Heh ... my fault?

Well, I do like the idea. There could be ways to make it much more in-check, of course. For example, what if the "steal out of closed container" idea required quite a long time to accomplish? What if it took 60 seconds, with a check for detection each 5 seconds? If either player moved during the 60 seconds, it fails. Also, perhaps it can only be performed once a day by a given thief whether it fails or succeeds?

Just thoughts. I think thievery is very cool. If fighters are allowed to remove weeks of combat progress in a single whimsical pkill, why in the world shouldn't thieves be allowed to remove weeks of item acquisition progress in a single whimsical theft maneuver?

G.

_________________
Mmmmmm ... pie ...


05 Apr 2016 10:27
Profile
Veteran

Joined: 29 Nov 2013 02:53
Posts: 237
Quote:
[Heh ... my fault? /quote]

Probably from this quote of yours.
Quote:
I would like to see SS Kenders be able to steal out of closed containers. No pathetic backpack or such would stop a true Kender. There are ways to be feared beyond power and strength.


To which I replied:
Quote:
If you do this, enjoy the griefing that follows. This is why MMOs have moved to give thief/rogue classes the ability to only steal loot from npcs and with their own loot tables. It is to easy to abuse and it will always be abused as much as it can.


Which seems to be in line with what Arman is thinking:
Quote:
I think the sort of discussions we've had about expanding the role of thieves is more around expanding their role to be more functional in achieving goals. So wizards getting cleverer about how they code areas and boss fights to take into account thief skills - whether it is steal, disarm traps, acrobatics, secret rooms/chests with locks etc. So make the role of a thief less one dimensional and useful for teams, and give players reason to have occ/lay set ups that aren't just optimising dps/dps as default.


Which I am very much in line with. I think it is awesome to think in certain 'classes' having certain functions that make boss fights easier. But this begs the question, are we getting boss fights?

Gorboth said:
Quote:
Just thoughts. I think thievery is very cool. If fighters are allowed to remove weeks of combat progress in a single whimsical pkill, why in the world shouldn't thieves be allowed to remove weeks of item acquisition progress in a single whimsical theft maneuver?


If you have to ask, it really shows you might not play many games. You and 100s of others in this case spend weeks to get what 1 thief can take in moments. And they will take as much from everyone that they can always. Which if you pk'd someone for weeks, there is a problem. Part of the reward of a game is having at least some constant. And genesis has plenty of non constants. Breakable stuff etc. Adding thieves in this mix leads to no fun for anyone but the thieves. And your argument sways real on the thief side. I would say why not also when a thief is caught, everyone have a blackjack or billyclub and when they fail, we knock them unconscious for 20s.

(forgot)
PvP isnt so easy. You say Whimsical. It is not the case unless someone has connection issues or is botting.

It also targets some guids more than others. Glads have poor awareness. Some guilds have very high awareness. Another thought to even going down this road would be to normalize all awareness issues ..... all players would get the same base awareness. There is just alot of work to get to the point you are thinking and every game I played in that had such an option lead to major unhappy customers. Save the thieving ones.

Also why not add in an auto reveal option. I bet players who had to find thieves would love to auto reveal them too when they see them just like they can auto sneak.


05 Apr 2016 12:39
Profile
Adept

Joined: 27 Jan 2016 18:42
Posts: 127
Ydred wrote:
Part of the reward of a game is having at least some constant.

Your not make any sense. I read you are afraid of thieves and try to claim steal is worse than pk that you personal have do to people. Thief is not steal weeks of work. You are crazy. You are get a dozen magic weapon and full of armour in hour or two of collect with your dps/dps build. When you kill people, <b>they</b> is the one who lose work of months, but why this is not your conversation? You are so full of fear. Oh no you say, someone can break my win button. Sorry www.fightermud.org player but this is a fantasy world not a fighter world win button world.

_________________
Somebody send this to me when I start:

Genesis Start Guide


05 Apr 2016 13:26
Profile WWW
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Reply to topic   [ 32 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
Designed by ST Software.