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PvP 
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Adept
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Joined: 03 Mar 2011 20:15
Posts: 134
Cherek wrote:
In Boogers idea the other guild has to "accept" the declaration of war.


Yes. I believe I read that somewhere. What I do not recall reading was something that made my questions less germane to the topic.

So why would anyone have a war at that point? It would require a) both sides believing that they have a better than even chance of winning, b) those making the decision would have to feel safe against possible loss either due to gross manipulation, perhaps with seconds, or by some sort of privilege of size or inactivity, perhaps to the pointed detriment of that guild or c) some sort of coercive action such as a griefing campaign to drive acceptance.

Cherek wrote:
[...] it will soon turn kinda pointless. [...] we all need to be rewarded for playing or we wont.


Yes. Playing Genesis should be rewarding, but that is not what I asked. You keep advocating for playing a specific way, killing each other's characters, and I am asking what do we gain from that. The answer "wizards should code rewards for us to do so" is a circular argument, at best.

Laurel wrote:
Strider - good points!


Thanks, but I really mean them as discussion questions. I firmly believe that huge swaths of details basically resolve themselves if you can dig down to the important concepts and state the underlying principles.

Earth wrote:
Oh, that type of change could be abused... I can already think of several ways that PvP no loss of exp would be useful.


Yes and arguably it is unhealthy for the community if players can not directly cause harm to each other's characters by fighting it out and are left to find other outlets for hostility.

Still, in so far as there may be value in fostering an environment where we can happily kill each other's characters without much consequence, it may be worth hashing out a system for low loss PVP, perhaps as the general rule.

Perhaps something where the game tracks all damage as either "player" or "environmental" from "very hurt" on down, with healing going against the oldest entries, and some metrics for dealing with ongoing effects like poison. Any time you die with say 67% player damage it's considered PVP and has little effect.

Of course, if we end up calculating to some extent what you died of, we could track player-caused damage by player, which could allow a grudge system to be added, allowing players to risk more and maybe even take some penalties in order to have the opportunity to cause a more impactful death on a character they have an issue with.

[Edited to finish thought.]

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06 Apr 2011 01:12
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Size is the problem.

Smaller people don't want to get into p-fights because they know they will be targeted by the myths in the enemy guild. There are many myths that are just looking for any pathetic excuse to attack and kill smaller/much smaller players. And that is the truth.

You want to get some more action into the game? More fun p-fights and wars? Put a stat-cap around titan, which will mean that no one will be able to be much bigger then anyone else. People will be able to specialize in different things. dwarves with their con and str, but won't have any dex. Gobbos in combat in general but they won't dare to attack the big and cool NPC for their eq. Humans and elves a bit even and hobbits in dex. Gnomes should just stay in MountNevermind hehe.

Anyway, this would make it so people will dare to attack each other and have their wars without the fear of having to run away from someone that can kill them with a sneeze.

I know, this is not a solution that people like, people like the idea of being bigger and stronger then others. But I would love to see it.


06 Apr 2011 11:15
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Joined: 04 Mar 2010 04:36
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Strider:

Everyone have their views on what is fun. I think PVP and conflicts are fun.

Why? Because I like competition player versus player much more than a co-op game versus the NPC world.

I am not trying to force it on others, rather sharing what I think is a fun game. And what was fun about Genesis in the past. I think Genesis was the most fun when people died all the time from PVP and every time you stepped out of the guild (as a knight) you did not know if you were going to make it back or not. It was exciting, it was fun.

Now I step out of my guild and I expect absolutely nothing to happen and usually nothing happens.

So to answer your question on "Why it is good to have PVP", the answer is "I think its fun". Simple as that.

And yes, I agree with Arcon about size is a big problem with PVP now. The gap between players is pretty large, and maybe even more importantly its easy to SEE how big someone is. "Yikes, I am a champion, he is a myth". Before the difference might have been as big between two champs, but you didnt really know how big people were. Now we have mortal rankings and lots of titles which makes it so much easier to know when to NOT fight someone.


06 Apr 2011 15:51
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Cherek wrote:
I think Genesis was the most fun when people died all the time from PVP and every time you stepped out of the guild (as a knight) you did not know if you were going to make it back or not. It was exciting, it was fun.


I remember KoS actually died out when both DAs+PoTs became very active and scored kill after kill. Same with Calians when dragontraps were the usual daily routine. I guess those memories faded with the victims of those moments (who faded from Gen alltogether)?

Cherek wrote:
Now I step out of my guild and I expect absolutely nothing to happen and usually nothing happens.


change guilds and run a conflict-related one? there are guilds who can be taken care of and led into war already
or just re-build Dagarim Aran and fight against MMs - it's usually quite entertaining

I myself prefer co-op vs AI with casual PvP (I utterly hate ganking) - I'm sorry to be not welcome in your game ... whenever it turned into it


06 Apr 2011 16:05
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Laurel: Why the attitude? I shared what I think is fun. Sorry we dont like the same things... but thats how people are? Different.

And for crying out loud stop putting words in my mouth. When did I say this was MY game, or that anyone who doesnt agree with me are not welcome? But yes, not everyone will like all games. Thats how it is. Lots of people probably dont like this game because the lack of conflicts and PVP, and if we had a lot of that lots of people would not like that.

Can we have both? Well yes I think so. But what we have now is basically only the CO-OP game. Hence the thread.

Cherek was killed many times as a knight. I did not say I found it fun to kill others, I said I liked the PVP in the old days when people of all guilds died pretty often. My own character included.

About your suggestion about declaring war against MM, any PVP system requires balance, Genesis is an utter failure when it comes to balance in many ways, and especially in terms of PVP balance. So in order to have any type of "fun" PVP that has to be fixed.


06 Apr 2011 16:17
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Cherek wrote:
About your suggestion about declaring war against MM, any PVP system requires balance, Genesis is an utter failure when it comes to balance in many ways, and especially in terms of PVP balance. So in order to have any type of "fun" PVP that has to be fixed.


why aren't you guys on a crusade for completing the balancing efforts of all guilds (MMs in this case) instead?


06 Apr 2011 16:21
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Laurel: Uh, I have mentioned that many times in the appropriate threads that pop up now and then that concerns game balance. Its not even something to argue about... its just how it is. PVP has to be balnced for it to work. Kinda goes without saying... all games with any type of player versus player competition requires a very good balance for it to be really successful and fun for all factions.

But they are working on that arent they? Atleast that is what them say. So why go on a "crusade" at things that are being worked on already...? We will just have to wait and I see how it all turns out I guess.


06 Apr 2011 16:42
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Cherek, when was the last time you were in a p-fight?

If you feel the need of more, start some then, the problem is that what you are talking about is something that don't make it optional.
You think it is fun with some war going on, good for you, I assume you are in fights all the time? What of the people that don't want to be in p-fights all the time?


06 Apr 2011 17:02
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arcon wrote:
Cherek, when was the last time you were in a p-fight?
If you feel the need of more, start some then, the problem is that what you are talking about is something that don't make it optional.
You think it is fun with some war going on, good for you, I assume you are in fights all the time? What of the people that don't want to be in p-fights all the time?


What am I talking about that does not make pfighting optional? It has always been optional, I have never said anything else. Dont wanna pfight there are tons of ways to stay out of it.

I would like more pfights, and there are a number of things in the current game design that make it very hard to "go out and start a pfight". I have mentioned what I think would be needed to make it fun again. That is less penalty for losing a pfights, more rewards for winning, more players in general in the game, more PVP abilities for all factions, and guilds more PVP-balanced. Fix one of this, or more, and I think PVP could be a fun part of the game again.

If you dont want pfights, I respect that. Stay out of it as much as you can. Join a neutral guild, RP a character who dont want to fight other players. People have done it with success plenty of times. But if you join the knights and then done enjoy getting attacked by your sworn enemies the Dragonarmies and claim you dont want pfights, then maybe you picked the wrong guild?

If you want a game with a switch you can turn on that makes you 100% safe from all other players, then perhaps there are other games? I am just saying what I personally would like this game to be. I want it to be dangerous, competetive, and exciting.

It was that once, if there are no plans for it to be that again, then I suppose I am the one who should find another game. Its hard to leave something you grew up with though, even if its turning into a direction you dont like. I am sure all of us has felt that at some point with this game.

Either way, some people arent gonna like the game. Thats just how it is. Those who make this game should imho create a game they would enjoy playing, and then those who like it will play, those who dont will not play. Trying to make everyone happy isnt going to work.


06 Apr 2011 17:32
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gorboth wrote:
Makfly's proposal is a fun one. I agree that it could be abused and that we'd have to put some thought into that if we were to implement it. Some of my favorite aspects of this idea revolve around the general exp value for the kill being boosted in proportion to the number of PVP kills that this player has perpetrated, making it something of a double-bounty. Very interesting! I also like how this could facilitate the recovery of the lost experience if the one to kill the person was the one they had previously killed. All very fascinating stuff ...

This would require building a somewhat robust tracking system for quite a few things, which would then perhaps give us some functionality in other directions if we wanted to head that way. Hmmm ... worth thinking about.

It hasn't been mentioned much (if at all?) in this thread, but one of the main arguments for a high death penalty is because it increases the value of certain aspects of roleplay. When you roleplay, the stakes are increased for your choices in relation to others. Anger people, and they might come after you. If them killing you only took one fanta from you, you would probably not mind so much, and would be more inclined to not care if you angered them. By making the penalty for death meaningful, we give the game world a sense of real consequences for your roleplay choices.

It is for this reason that I will not lower the death penalty in the forseeable future.

G.



Sorry -- I'm going to drag up this discussion again. But I think its pertinent considering all the people on the FB chat considering the possiblity of playing again. I think people's biggest thing they are lacking is time. If they have 1 hour to play....there is no way they can get near a fanta. We're talking about someone who made slight progress after hours of grinding due to their brute being so high from all the herbing they were doing. Its not really fun or enjoyable for them if their focus if more of a RP, herbing, and maybe sneak about (I was talking to a Ranger).

If we're going to cater to a casual player who has 1 hour per day.. how do we address this so they can actually play.

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16 May 2011 08:01
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