Calian Announcement

[Aimee]

Is it not the other way? Humans from Kabal terrorizing other racers and goblins fighting for freedom? There is a reason that The Holy Order of Thanar is located in Kabal.

Maybe I'm wrong on this...but Thanar isn't exactly located "in" Kabal. Its hidden in a cave in a pretty dank area. I wouldn't exactly call that a prominent place in Kabal, nor has any of the experiences I've had in Kabal shown me that Thanar hold a high place of honor there. Again, I might be wrong.

[Morglum]

Is it not the other way? Humans from Kabal terrorizing other racers and goblins fighting for freedom? There is a reason that The Holy Order of Thanar is located in Kabal.

Maybe I'm wrong on this...but Thanar isn't exactly located "in" Kabal. Its hidden in a cave in a pretty dank area. I wouldn't exactly call that a prominent place in Kabal, nor has any of the experiences I've had in Kabal shown me that Thanar hold a high place of honor there. Again, I might be wrong.

I've been on both sides of the fence so let me elaborate a bit. Thanar are a human sect that thinks all other races should be exterminated, they aren't very prominent in Kabal, like you mentioned. Red Fang are terrorists/freedom fighters (depends on your point of view, as usual with this kind of thing). There are at least 2 quests there that shed some light on the matter. RF are known for their anti-human politics.

Back in the day, when I was a young Red Fang member and was applying to Calian Warriors I've been asked to leave the guild if my application were to go any further. I've been discussing this at length with the Calian Council (since I really liked RF) but ultimately the conclusion was that I couldn't remain a RF if I wanted to become Calian. Since Habiki is on the council now I think that the policy has changed.

All things considered, being a goblin in Calia pretty much sucks. You have to stay good-aligned, so most quests that goblins can do go out the window. You are still a goblin so some of the "allies" frown at teaming with you. Stuff like that.

[Avatar]

Spot on, Morglum.

[Greneth]

I think this is an excellent conversation,

I'd like to make one correction before entering. While Paladine did appear to Vinas Solamnus and guided him on the creation of the Knighthood, Kiri-Jolith and Habbakuk are both very important as well. Knights of Paladine is not an accurate description. As well, like the Calians, Knights were initially conceived because of injustice and oppression that was seen by Vinas during the Rebellion in Ergoth.

Now, onto this conversation. Do the Calian's not have a founder which helps guide them as well? I thought that Caliana was the founder who helped to define the Calians. I am not Calian expert, this is not a troll, it is a legitimate question.

I have always felt that the Calians were a somewhat neutral guild. Their guild mechanics may say differently (I don't know if you have alignment rules) and if so, then that should help them know whether they are a goodie guild or not. Aside from that, who they team with I think has to be viewed thematically, as Hektor and then Habiki said.

I think the real question is whether calians teaming with AA, DA, Necros, etc... fits with what they want to stand for and what they are supposed to stand for. I think that this is a question best answered by the Council and members of the guild without outside criticism. Whatever they decide they will decide and any ramifications that come from it will be theirs.

One thing I am curious about though is that Habiki is a member of the Red Fang. The Red Fang is a group of Goblins near Kalad who are terrorizing and attacking the citizens of Kalad. Seems a bit odd to me that this would be an acceptable guild for a Calian.

Aimee

Caliana is the founder, it was her actions that brought together the first Warlords. They were just a band of mercenaries to begin with and she was placed into the role of the leader due to her leadership abilities. It can be speculated that there is a higher deity because its never fully explained how she came into her magical abilities, but thats a whole nother discussion.

Hektor hit it pretty well on the head, not sure where they would rank on the morality charts but a neutral good would be close. They defend the palace and Gelan as those are their territories. Red Fang members if you go by the quests have signed a treaty with the town and are not currently attacking it.

Guilds such as MMs and Necros would be viewed badly or with distrust because they wield the same vile black magic as Kroug, that would be up to the council. As for AA, DA etc as long as they were not enemies of Calia or mindlessly attacking innocents their beliefs should not come into play. What it comes down to is Calians only priority should be Calia not what happens in Krynn, ME. If a DA wants to assist in killing trolls what difference does it make what his morality compass is.

This is just all my interpretation of the lore and im a bit more radical then some. Like Hektor said, it comes down to the council.

[Aimee]

Caliana is the founder, it was her actions that brought together the first Warlords. They were just a band of mercenaries to begin with and she was placed into the role of the leader due to her leadership abilities. It can be speculated that there is a higher deity because its never fully explained how she came into her magical abilities, but thats a whole nother discussion.

Hektor hit it pretty well on the head, not sure where they would rank on the morality charts but a neutral good would be close. They defend the palace and Gelan as those are their territories. Red Fang members if you go by the quests have signed a treaty with the town and are not currently attacking it.

Guilds such as MMs and Necros would be viewed badly or with distrust because they wield the same vile black magic as Kroug, that would be up to the council. As for AA, DA etc as long as they were not enemies of Calia or mindlessly attacking innocents their beliefs should not come into play. What it comes down to is Calians only priority should be Calia not what happens in Krynn, ME. If a DA wants to assist in killing trolls what difference does it make what his morality compass is.

This is just all my interpretation of the lore and im a bit more radical then some. Like Hektor said, it comes down to the council.

Well, going off what you have written hear,

I think that you explain away any issue with the Red Fangs, that is fine. I still think they essentially are the goblin version of Thanar in that they think Humans are worthless, etc..but fine.

I don't think they would be Neutral Good. I think more Chaotic good as they do what is necessary for themselves. But that's my opinion. I do, however, think that Calians should have an issue with AA and DA. Reasons being is that AA are very close aligned with the Morgul Mages and the DAs are very closely aligned with PoT. Both use dark forms of magic to control and oppress, things I think that the Calians would stand against.

If Calians want to be more like the Spirit Circle and not involve themselves in political issues and only have concerns with undead, well then fine...still would eliminate AA. If Calians want to be "We only care about ourselves and don't care about anyone else or anything else so long as we get what we want and our stuff is protected", well that is totally fine too. That would make you a neutral guild. If Calians want to be a neutral guild I think they need to seriously consider whether that is what they are...and if they decide it is...maybe there should be a change to the guild to show that.

Aimee

[Laurel]

Just make align more local than global.
Whatever guild killing Qualinesti elves - shouldn't drop align. Exception - if one is Elven Archer.
Whatever guild killing dwarf camp - shouldn't drop align. Exception - Neidar or Shieldbearer.
ME should remain as it is for all guilds located there.
Whatever guild killing Flotsam/Balifor - shouldn't increase align. Exceptions - Neidars (incl. Shieldbearers), Knights and SS.
I would even go as far as to allow Neidars to kill off Kendermore (for whatever reasons ...) without align restrictions, but not Knights.
On the other hand killing Neraka trolls should improve align for Knights but blow up the align of DA, PoT and KoT (maybe it does now - I don't know).
Killing ANY trolls, ogres or goblins (there are no orcs in Gen-Krynn afaik) should improve Neidar and Shieldbearer align.
Borrowing items should improve SS align. "Behaving" - blow up.
Backstabing and stealing should improve thief align (move it in the desired direction).
Killing goblins should blow up ogre align.
etc. etc.

Everything like "Rangers don't kill Gamalus" or "Knights don't kill Ranger commanders in Ithilien" should be solved by guild policies and politics. Not by code.

Obviously this approach would require more fine tuning but would also allow to stay without any global align recode.

[Zhar]

What you're refering to Laurel seems more like "faction points" than actual alignment in its most basic good vs evil form. Think of it more like KoS prestige.
I'm all for implementing some form of factions and deities that you can gain "points" towards (which would obviously remove points, if any, from the opposing faction) which you could perhaps even redeem for some nice rewards (custom equipment) and being "friends" with said faction (ie: their guards not attacking you, despite any grievances between guilds etc.). I think this would add another level of RP, and maybe the guilds could incorporate it into their application process (can't become DA if you haven't got at least x standing with this faction, can't become PoT if you aren't in good standing with Takhisis etc.). In other words, proof of deeds done that are beneficial to the guild/faction.

[Laurel]

Knights, Rangers and PoT have that already. Or at least some forms of it.

[Zhar]

Indeed. What I meant was that I'd like to see it more as a global thing rather than being only available to few guilds.

[Syrk]

Some time since the Announcement passed and only today i have read Ascension note on Calians' board.
Fun.