Mages on recoded balance

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gorboth
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Re: Mages on recoded balance

Post by gorboth » 14 Nov 2013 20:21

Very well said, Amorana. The degree to which optimization effects pvp outcomes cannot be overstated. And, yes, if two myth Niedar members who had the best gear in the game, many boosting imbuements, and with a premeditated plan of attack got the jump on an unprepared myth Morgul Mage, that Morgul Mage would lose the battle woefully.

The key here is the preparation. You can argue, "But you will *never* meet an unprepared Morgul Mage!" Firstly, I doubt that is true. Secondly, it is within the means of any guild in the game to take preparation of all members at all times very seriously. The curse of the competent is often to be accused of being unfairly advantaged. Well, maybe it is unfair that some of us are smarter and harder working than others. Hey. Life isn't fair.

We do our job to try to make the balance work as well as we can so that all guilds have their own way of performing adequately in the global scheme. It is up to the members of those guilds to do what they can with the material. What Fluffy and Morrison did to Logg was an example of hard work, coordination, skill, surprise, equipment, and superior numbers paying off against someone who was not prepared to withstand it. If the situation had been that Fluffy, not really that well equipped, casually bumped into Logg, also not that well equipped, and they fought, it would not have looked like this at all. Fluffy might still win, because of the natural advantage of a mage over a fighter. However, if Fluffy were unprepared, and Logg were prepared, Fluffy would lose because Logg would be able to mitigate damage, outlast with tank potential, and then take Fluffy to town when Fluffy's mana is gone.

Rock/paper/scissors is a simplification of a very complex thing we are trying. It is a bad analogy in that we don't want rock ALWAYS beats scissors. Replace "ALWAYS beats" with "has a natural advantage over." Dice will still be dice. Sometimes you fight the same npc you've destroyed countless times and the dice rolls foil you out of the blue. Pvp throws this into the mix just the same.

Kiara, I understand your frustration in that I've not published the model I based all this on for mass consumption due to the fact that it spells out the abilities of all guilds in the game. It might be a good idea for me to find a way to publish it, though, perhaps removing those specifics.

G
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Re: Mages on recoded balance

Post by Amorana » 14 Nov 2013 20:30

Kiara wrote:Amorana: Uh? Yeah... everyone can get imbuements and stuff. But for balance purposes we gotta compare "all else equal"-situations. Meaning neither side has imbues or anything else that both sides can use for their advantage. Two equal guilds are two guilds where none have imbues etc and its 50-50 chance either side wins. What natural advantages do you mean? I am not sure I understand?

...

As for Loggs death. Well I think the mage would have won 10 out of 10 fights, even if neither side had imbues or anything, in that "Bubba fight" you're describing. The mage should win. I base that on the fact the Gorboth said mages SHOULD beat fighters in a one vs one fight, that and just gut feeling...
That's a natural advantage.

You keep talking about this 50-50 situation, but that's just it. Guilds are not created equal. Neidars and Monks are tanking guilds. BDA/RDA/Calians are fighter guilds. Clerics are healers/undead fighting. Mages/POT are caster "DPS". Rangers are utility.

In that scenario: Neidars and Monks should split 50/50 fights. BDA/RDA/Calians should split 50/50 fights. Clerics and ? should split 50/50 fights (maybe Cult of Chemosh?) Mages/POT should fight each other and split 50/50. Rangers just suck :D . The scenario we are talking about with a mage fighting Logg is a natural advantage. Throw into that the fact that that they were imbued etc, and yeah, he dies quick. So why is everyone outraged?

Look, the crowd control argument is ridiculous. Since I was pmed about this, I'll share the response I had to that person here:
Don't get me wrong, I feel bad Logg died. I'm upset Logg left the game over it (if he really has.)

My problem is that no one wants to recognize that it's a two on one and both were specifically geared up to kill him. I mean, they have anti-dwarf imbuements, do they not? I'm willing to bet several of their items had such an imbuement on it. That's not gonna help matters. Toss on some death magic boosting, some haste, etc. etc.

Further, two [FIGHTING GUILD] their size standing in a room could have done the same thing to him. Timing [CC ABILITY], they would have beat the shit out of him with their [SPECIAL ATTACKS], and he wouldn't have been able to do a thing about it. (Adding in: Then would we have all complained about fighter on fighter balance?)

I'm just saying there is a lot more to the situation than what is being represented on the boards, and I know the death stings, and I know he's upset. But there's a lot more factors than "It's not fair, they CCed me, and their dps is high." There's reasons for all of those.
What I'm getting at, is two people using a crowd control ability on one person, should almost always be able to keep them "stuck". Suck? Yeah, it does. But imo, in a two-on-one PVP fight, the handicapped guy should never be able to get away. When I first started playing Genesis when I was 13 (so long ago) we called running to the Common Room to escape attack abuse. That attitude is gone from the realms, but... eh. Apparently these days everyone thinks you should just be able to run to safety no matter what.

I'm not saying, however, there isn't room for improvement in the overall system. Neidars were stated to be the premier tanking class of the realms post-recode. To me, that would include some magical resistance (for the guild, not for all dwarves as a whole.) That isn't there, and I'd be in favor of that. I'd even be in favor of giving it to the monks (the blessings of the ancestors has granted them the protection of the scales of dragons, perhaps?) I do think giving all dwarves racial magical resistance is a stretch based on how our game works... Unless you're also going to make hobbits eat 10 times as often as a normal race (you know, second breakfast and all. :lol: )

End of the day, the problem isn't with this kill, isn't with how PVP works, it's about how dying in a PVP death punishes a person. PVP like this would be a ton of fun (if not used for the purposes of griefing, preventing a person from questing, etc) if it wasn't for the fact that when you die you take a huge hit. This is how PVP works in almost every other game - against some "classes" you just get your ass handed to you. It's just in those games, you don't eat a huge penalty.

And that's why I'm a huge proponent of the "death holiday" becoming a full time thing.

Edited: Fixed some grammar. Added the bit about the monks resistance. Edited again to remove a guild ability mention.
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Re: Mages on recoded balance

Post by Laurel » 14 Nov 2013 21:38

gorboth wrote:Very well said, Amorana. The degree to which optimization effects pvp outcomes cannot be overstated. And, yes, if two myth Niedar members who had the best gear in the game, many boosting imbuements, and with a premeditated plan of attack got the jump on an unprepared myth Morgul Mage, that Morgul Mage would lose the battle woefully.
loose the battle = bounce off and return when the odds are right
as opposed to someone caught with the best cc in current game = can't do shit

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Re: Mages on recoded balance

Post by Makfly » 14 Nov 2013 21:53

gorboth wrote:Rock/paper/scissors is a simplification of a very complex thing we are trying. It is a bad analogy in that we don't want rock ALWAYS beats scissors. Replace "ALWAYS beats" with "has a natural advantage over." Dice will still be dice. Sometimes you fight the same npc you've destroyed countless times and the dice rolls foil you out of the blue. Pvp throws this into the mix just the same.

Kiara, I understand your frustration in that I've not published the model I based all this on for mass consumption due to the fact that it spells out the abilities of all guilds in the game. It might be a good idea for me to find a way to publish it, though, perhaps removing those specifics.

G
I am really glad to hear that it is a simplification, because I really can't wrap my head about the idea that our admin chose a rock, paper, sissor (Fighter, Undeads, Undead-hunters) concept for balancing the guilds in the game. That just sounds like a terrible game design methodology to use for balancing a somewhat complex game like Genesis.

If you are interested in having a public debate on balancing, then I think it would be very interesting if you would post some more indepth thoughts on the methods and systems you are using to guide the balancing of the game.
Mortimor Makfly - Gnomish Xeno-Anthropologist

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OgreToyBoy
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Re: Mages on recoded balance

Post by OgreToyBoy » 14 Nov 2013 21:58

Laurel wrote:
gorboth wrote:Very well said, Amorana. The degree to which optimization effects pvp outcomes cannot be overstated. And, yes, if two myth Niedar members who had the best gear in the game, many boosting imbuements, and with a premeditated plan of attack got the jump on an unprepared myth Morgul Mage, that Morgul Mage would lose the battle woefully.
loose the battle = bounce off and return when the odds are right
as opposed to someone caught with the best cc in current game = can't do shit
Gorboth have to take the comparisions to the extreme.

If one lone mage (any of the myths will do) attack ANY fighter with average gear the fighter will loose AND when he try to run away he will most likely not be able to. A mage might get blocked but at least he can break that block.

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Re: Mages on recoded balance

Post by Kiara » 14 Nov 2013 22:02

Amorana:

I never said anything should be 50-50... that was just an estimation Petros used about undeads vs undead hunters. If you want to know my standpoint on that I think I was totally clear from my posts that I believe rock paper scissors can work just fine, IF the different _types_ have an more or less equal advantage against their prey.

I never said mages should be nerfed. I never said anyone should be able to speedwalk to safe rooms and get away super easy. I've been saying exactly the OPPOSITE all the time... but again, I think we need a more equal distribution of crowd control abilities. Currently like 10% of the population can hinder your from escaping from a fight, while the rest of us cant. I think we need more stuff like that if its more PVP we want. No matter the death penalty. So The problem I have is not that Logg, Ilrahil, Irk, or any other of the countless people who's been mage-killed were killed. The problem is how to fight back. Crowd control abilities are extremely powerful in a world where very few have them. And its not the first time this system has "failed", or been abused, or whatever you wanna kill it.

Remember when knights where the only guild that could block your completely? One exit rooms were death traps. Or DAs that paralyzed you for minutes...? If a few guilds have such abilities it usually ends badly as soon as the guild starts using it. If I dont remember wrong these types of abilities were _banned_ from the game for some time, because of all the deaths caused by them. Global block was introduced, but since it was so weak it had no real impact. And now we're back to a few guilds with crowd control again. Will it work this time? I doubt it. Sorry, but it's not gonna work. Its such a powerful tool and giving it to a few guilds only will just simply suck for those who end up on the other side. I think it's an "everyone or noone" approach in terms of crowd control that is needed for PVP to ever be really fun. No matter the death penalty. It's still not fun to be beat up even if you dont lose experience... although maybe it saves people from quitting the game from deaths perhaps. And maybe has other advantages, but that change alone wont suddenly make PVP super fun. At least not PVP against those with crowd control.

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Re: Mages on recoded balance

Post by Windemere » 14 Nov 2013 22:17

There are actually quite a few guilds with Crowd Control abilities.

I don't want to list them because it probably isn't appropriate, but I know there are more than just Knights and MMs. In fact Knight block is based on Global block...so what you get they get and its just they can train it higher. The effectiveness is similar and it is fairly easy to break. I've tested it a few times with a Knight friend.

Also, the Mages CC is completely new, and it may be flawed in how it is implemented. Having never experienced it (like about 90% of people the board) I can't really do much more than speculate based on the little information that anyone has provided.

Frankly Crowd Control abilities being in every guild would be a bit ridiculous and unnecessary. Like I said, though, there are quite a few guilds with CC.

Windemere

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Re: Mages on recoded balance

Post by Kiara » 14 Nov 2013 22:18

gorboth wrote:However, if Fluffy were unprepared, and Logg were prepared, Fluffy would lose because Logg would be able to mitigate damage, outlast with tank potential, and then take Fluffy to town when Fluffy's mana is gone.
The thing is though. Logg being unprepared means he doesnt have resistance armors. Other than that he was as prepared as he can be. And they are extremely rare items. Fluffy unprepared? That would mean being without spell components I take it? I dont think we can really compare something you can easy gather, something that saves on your person, with something like having one of the very few resistance items in the game. If even one is enough. Logg has fought Fluffy with resistance, he lived, but still lost the fight. And, most importantly, even, if by some stroke of luck Logg catches Fluffy without mana or components or something, he can just speedwalk away whenever he wants to and live without problem. If the opposite happens, it means death for the attacked. But if these undead hunters can do the same to Fluffy, then maybe its a system that can work. Maybe people will change opinion about things when more stuff has been tested.
gorboth wrote: Rock/paper/scissors is a simplification of a very complex thing we are trying. It is a bad analogy in that we don't want rock ALWAYS beats scissors. Replace "ALWAYS beats" with "has a natural advantage over." Dice will still be dice. Sometimes you fight the same npc you've destroyed countless times and the dice rolls foil you out of the blue. Pvp throws this into the mix just the same.
I know you never meant its "always" beat. My point however is that the ratio should be the same though, dont you think? Like in REAL rock paper scissors its 100% win for each "tool". While for us maybe its like an average 70-30 advantage depending on all sorts of things. But the point is rock should have a 70-30 advantage over scissors, scissors should have a 70-30 advantage over paper, and paper should have a 70-30 advantage over rocks. Right? (70-30 are example numbers).

Or? Dont both you and Petros agree that the advantages for each "type" in this setup should be equal?

What sparked this whole thing for me was that Petros said the idea is that rocks should beat scissors, but papers doesnt have a much advantage over rocks. Its more like 50-50. And based on the current setup, scissors dont have much advantage over papers either. (Scops vs non undead fighters). And thats where you lost me... because it sure doesnt seem right...? If this is the model, all three types must have an equal advantage over each other.. right? That must be the idea? I hope?
gorboth wrote: Kiara, I understand your frustration in that I've not published the model I based all this on for mass consumption due to the fact that it spells out the abilities of all guilds in the game. It might be a good idea for me to find a way to publish it, though, perhaps removing those specifics.
That would probably be helpful for many of us.:) Its clearly a topic that many are interested in.
Last edited by Kiara on 14 Nov 2013 22:31, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Mages on recoded balance

Post by Kiara » 14 Nov 2013 22:27

Windemere wrote:There are actually quite a few guilds with Crowd Control abilities.

I don't want to list them because it probably isn't appropriate, but I know there are more than just Knights and MMs. In fact Knight block is based on Global block...so what you get they get and its just they can train it higher. The effectiveness is similar and it is fairly easy to break. I've tested it a few times with a Knight friend.

Also, the Mages CC is completely new, and it may be flawed in how it is implemented. Having never experienced it (like about 90% of people the board) I can't really do much more than speculate based on the little information that anyone has provided.

Frankly Crowd Control abilities being in every guild would be a bit ridiculous and unnecessary. Like I said, though, there are quite a few guilds with CC.

Windemere
I didnt even count knights since its just normal block with a boost as I understood it, then you might as well count mercs too. Block is too easy to break, and rarely useful though...

I dont think ogres is a secret. And then there is one other guild. Not counting knights I'd say 3. So I dont know if its that many. Unless you wanna count ranger blind and such things... but thats barely comparable I think.

Well I think the world would be much funnier in terms of PVP if every guild had some PVP ability, or if there was a useful global one. Or more items for the purpose. Etc. Any way you wanna do it. Some guilds can have an edge, fine. But I think all players should have the _possibility_ of crowd control in some way. Especially if death penalty remains gone, or is severely limited, and PVP picks up. Because PVP still wont be fun if only some can keep others from escaping. Then just these guilds will be interested in fighting... and the will want to fight those who dont have any crowd control of course...

It needed to be realistic though. Of course. Not mega paralyze that lasts several minutes, or unbreakable block, etc. Thats no fun.

As for the mages ability... I dont know if its "too good". I am speaking more generally, but sure they obviously have something as Ilrahil and Logg has proved. I am trying to find out how it works with my event.:)

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Re: Mages on recoded balance

Post by Windemere » 14 Nov 2013 22:44

If I remove Knights as well and count the guilds whom I know have some level of Crowd Control (excluding rangers as well) I would count 6, maybe even 7.

That seems like a lot to me.

Windemere

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