Death Penalty Opinions

[Celephias]

I like the idea of ramifications for actions taken. The old death system definitely had that. I died as a huge myth and recovery took a very long time. Really makes you think about what you're about to do. I once played a mud where once you died, you were truly dead - spin up a new char. That also makes you think

Its a difficult balance. You want people active, playing, interacting and in conflict. Penalties that are too steep inhibit that. Penalties that are too soft slant it the other way. Once people know they can't truly be hurt, they act more out of character.

I disagree entirely. What is the point of acting in character when touching a myth's robes can get you nuked as a hero? Why would I ever say to Celephias that I could grant him absolution if with the bat of an eye I could die? Harsh penalties on death actually work to inhibit the type of RP that is most beneficial to the game.

When did Celephias ever attack you for anything you've said? You mouthed off a few at him with no attack. Also, Windemere and Jhael have too, who are also pretty small. I've engaged in banter with you all without any fighting. I would say RP is quite fine there despite the disparity in size.

However, if you choose to attack how do you think it should end up? Banter and attacks are two different things to me. OK, so now what about the grey areas? I look at intent. Someone trying to steal from me? Should get you killed. Emotes that cross the respect line. Depends. What is the motivation of the other person for doing it? That counts a lot for me.

For some character to attack me, try to steal from me, otherwise harass me, why should they get a free pass? Is this the kind of 'RP' we are looking to reward?

[gorboth]

Regarding the idea that you can never fall below an achieved mortal level:

Consider the scenareo where someone is killed down to the "base" of a given mortal level. At that point, another death doesn't cost them anything. If they choose to stay at that level, they will not fear death any more than they do during the death-penalty vacation, because there will be no penalty for them. Thus, they'd have the chance to slap the General of the Dragonarmy in the face, and not care if they die, etc etc ... roleplay breakdown.

G.

[Makfly]

Now if we could separate contribution from stats in PvE and PvP, then we would have the option of creating something like the above suggestion, and still start to create a more level playing field in PvP.

And how would you do that? Let's take for example an AoE spell or special that's being cast/launched in the room with both NPCs and players in it. Instead of counting the damage output once, we now have to do it separately for each traget, checking if its PC or NPC... It's quite a bit of work, you know.

I didn't say it would be easy? Else it probably would have been done before.
But give time to think, smart minds could probably come up with a better way of going about it, than the most obvious one just mentioned.
Its pretty clear that many, many games have entered balance-hell by trying to balance both PvE and PvP at the same time, with the same set of rules. So seperating the two would make for much stronger tools to eventually achieve a proper balance in PvP as well as PvE.

Which leads me to mention design challenges - If in-game events can dole out great prizes like the latest event, why can't the Wizards issue design challenges and provide sufficient incentives for players to wrack their minds to try and come up with a good solution to the challenge issued?
I know it would be "out of game events" but why not? With so few Wizards it would be an obvious choice to engage in crowdsourcing solutions.

[Zhar]

Regarding the idea that you can never fall below an achieved mortal level:

Consider the scenareo where someone is killed down to the "base" of a given mortal level. At that point, another death doesn't cost them anything. If they choose to stay at that level, they will not fear death any more than they do during the death-penalty vacation, because there will be no penalty for them. Thus, they'd have the chance to slap the General of the Dragonarmy in the face, and not care if they die, etc etc ... roleplay breakdown.

G.

Yes, but at the same time you will also never grow any bigger And it could be a way for people to try out dangerous things.

It could also be expanded so that if you die more than 2-3 times when already at the minimum-level-requirement you get penalized with negative xp (being unable to gain xp for some time), thus preventing future growth for extended periods of time.

[Amorana]

I like the idea of ramifications for actions taken. The old death system definitely had that. I died as a huge myth and recovery took a very long time. Really makes you think about what you're about to do. I once played a mud where once you died, you were truly dead - spin up a new char. That also makes you think

Its a difficult balance. You want people active, playing, interacting and in conflict. Penalties that are too steep inhibit that. Penalties that are too soft slant it the other way. Once people know they can't truly be hurt, they act more out of character.

I disagree entirely. What is the point of acting in character when touching a myth's robes can get you nuked as a hero? Why would I ever say to Celephias that I could grant him absolution if with the bat of an eye I could die? Harsh penalties on death actually work to inhibit the type of RP that is most beneficial to the game.

When did Celephias ever attack you for anything you've said? You mouthed off a few at him with no attack. Also, Windemere and Jhael have too, who are also pretty small. I've engaged in banter with you all without any fighting. I would say RP is quite fine there despite the disparity in size.

However, if you choose to attack how do you think it should end up? Banter and attacks are two different things to me. OK, so now what about the grey areas? I look at intent. Someone trying to steal from me? Should get you killed. Emotes that cross the respect line. Depends. What is the motivation of the other person for doing it? That counts a lot for me.

For some character to attack me, try to steal from me, otherwise harass me, why should they get a free pass? Is this the kind of 'RP' we are looking to reward?

My point is that I have mouthed off because there's less fear that if you kill me, I would lose weeks of work. If we revert to the old penalty (or anywhere near it) I would likely never do such. Why bother putting myself in a position where I lose a bunch of progress I've made (in terms of what I've been able to do in the game) just to offer Celephias absolution? I wouldn't.

[Amorana]

Regarding the idea that you can never fall below an achieved mortal level:

Consider the scenareo where someone is killed down to the "base" of a given mortal level. At that point, another death doesn't cost them anything. If they choose to stay at that level, they will not fear death any more than they do during the death-penalty vacation, because there will be no penalty for them. Thus, they'd have the chance to slap the General of the Dragonarmy in the face, and not care if they die, etc etc ... roleplay breakdown.

G.

See my previous post. The fear of losing level and size does just as much to chill roleplay, especially for smaller characters interacting with myths.

[Jhael]

My point is that I have mouthed off because there's less fear that if you kill me, I would lose weeks of work. If we revert to the old penalty (or anywhere near it) I would likely never do such. Why bother putting myself in a position where I lose a bunch of progress I've made (in terms of what I've been able to do in the game) just to offer Celephias absolution? I wouldn't.

I really do think this is what we need to consider with the new death system, should there be one. It's important that death does not prohibit someone's RP, but also that death is enough of a factor to not just 'ffinger' every Mage and walk away. Unfortunately, I do not have a real suggestion here. I like some of the ideas and think there's definitely a good combination to make between them.

When did Celephias ever attack you for anything you've said? You mouthed off a few at him with no attack. Also, Windemere and Jhael have too, who are also pretty small. I've engaged in banter with you all without any fighting. I would say RP is quite fine there despite the disparity in size.

It's actually a TON of fun to RP with you as SC to Mage ... the key is to note that I, personally, have done so from the safety of nowhere near you. Were Celephias actually in front of me, I'd likely handle it super differently.

[Celephias]

My point is that I have mouthed off because there's less fear that if you kill me, I would lose weeks of work. If we revert to the old penalty (or anywhere near it) I would likely never do such. Why bother putting myself in a position where I lose a bunch of progress I've made (in terms of what I've been able to do in the game) just to offer Celephias absolution? I wouldn't.

I really do think this is what we need to consider with the new death system, should there be one. It's important that death does not prohibit someone's RP, but also that death is enough of a factor to not just 'ffinger' every Mage and walk away. Unfortunately, I do not have a real suggestion here. I like some of the ideas and think there's definitely a good combination to make between them.

When did Celephias ever attack you for anything you've said? You mouthed off a few at him with no attack. Also, Windemere and Jhael have too, who are also pretty small. I've engaged in banter with you all without any fighting. I would say RP is quite fine there despite the disparity in size.

It's actually a TON of fun to RP with you as SC to Mage ... the key is to note that I, personally, have done so from the safety of nowhere near you. Were Celephias actually in front of me, I'd likely handle it super differently.

That's true - I have only seen Amorana and Windemere in person. Interestingly enough, I would imagine if it were someone more Kas' size you would possibly feel better, just as Hektor or Nikiel would be fine with Celephias. I know size plays a role, but I'm not sure its all bad or contrary to RP; one just needs to be conscious of it depending on the situation. Certainly if a smallish MM slapped Hektor, I would expect to be picking up wraith specks from the ground...

[Amorana]

That's true - I have only seen Amorana and Windemere in person. Interestingly enough, I would imagine if it were someone more Kas' size you would possibly feel better, just as Hektor or Nikiel would be fine with Celephias. I know size plays a role, but I'm not sure its all bad or contrary to RP; one just needs to be conscious of it depending on the situation. Certainly if a smallish MM slapped Hektor, I would expect to be picking up wraith specks from the ground...

Definitely. I would certainly feel better RPing in such a way with Kas because even if I feel like I might lose, I'd estimate I'd have a bit more of a chance in battling him. I'm not saying it shouldn't be easy for a myth to obliterate me - just that the penalty could cause me not to RP in such a way. Which I do actually think is a detriment - SCOPs and MM should be mortal enemies, nearly unable to stand each other's presence. However, the old death penalty being what it was is precisely what led to the non-aggression between the tower and the temple (much to everyone on these forums' complaining.) When your smaller players can't get into a PVP fight without being obliterated, and you can't leave the guild halls without getting into a pvp fight, and dying in such a way causes a serious blow to your character... necessity steps in and what essentially is a poor-rp solution must be crafted.

(PS... I'm not implying here that even as a player I'm ready to do away with the treaty. I'd rather like to keep my size after the death penalty comes back. I'm just saying that two guilds that are mortal enemies should never be in the state of non-aggression we are in, but the PVP system in Genesis almost makes it impossible not to be.)

[Kas]

Battling Kas? Pff...he scoffs scornfully, knowing he can't be defeated. ^^