Invisibility and Blocking Rooms

[Amorana]

I have seen NPCs that are 'guarding' something block regardless of invis, non invis, dark, etc. I have also seen situations where an NPC or group of NPCs would only block once they became aware of you. Like a bunch of soldiers playing cards, looking up and seeing an intruder, and then block them from proceeding.

Edit - I also would expect sneak to work similarly. If you sneak in successfully, you can proceed, if not, then you're blocked.

I definitely do not disagree with you. It makes 'logical' sense that an invisible person would be able to stroll past guards in certain situations. It is frustrating due the combination of circumstances, though. The fact that quantity of items is limited is specifically frustrating, since it's very easy for some guild to get to the item and very difficult for others.

I agree here. I think a big part of the problem with this piece in particular - screw it, let's just be out with it, it's the MBP - is that the trip there sucks. The time it takes to kill the groups outside the piece sucks (especially as a non-huge player), and then you finally get there, to find a corpse of the Captain. Ends up being a super pain.

Stack on that the fact that as Jhael mentions here it is a limited piece, with a small number available. It becomes a lopsided battle trying to get it against someone who is almost always online and able to get past the guards in a way that others cannot. I will admit I haven't tried sneaking, but given that the guard can see someone who's invisible, my guess is they can see sneakers as well, and I'm not sure they'd let a sneaker by in the same way.

Any rangers or kenders able to verify?

[Amorana]

So, having an ability to get a quick access to some npc or area breaks the game. Is this your opinion? Just asking so we are clear on this.

I'd say see the post here ^^. I think it depends on the situation. With a very limited item of this quality? Yes. I think it does.

[Kas]

So, having an ability to get a quick access to some npc or area breaks the game. Is this your opinion? Just asking so we are clear on this.

I'd say see the post here ^^. I think it depends on the situation. With a very limited item of this quality? Yes. I think it does.

Allright.

[Jhael]

I do not think it should be out of the question for invisible/sneaking/etc players to receive a room tell to the effect of:
"You see no way to slip past the <guards> while avoiding detection."
And any other ability that could be used to bypass it to be prevented in some thematic way.

I guess the question then becomes if doing that severely limits the effectiveness of such an ability. If you cannot use invisibility to sneak past guards, does it become almost a pvp-only ability? In that case, is it mostly useless since pvp is not terribly frequent? Does that affect the balance of the guild?

[Kas]

I do not think it should be out of the question for invisible/sneaking/etc players to receive a room tell to the effect of:
"You see no way to slip past the <guards> while avoiding detection."
And any other ability that could be used to bypass it to be prevented in some thematic way.

I guess the question then becomes if doing that severely limits the effectiveness of such an ability. If you cannot use invisibility to sneak past guards, does it become almost a pvp-only ability? In that case, is it mostly useless since pvp is not terribly frequent? Does that affect the balance of the guild?

Nah, I don't think so.

That tool isn't primarily used to collect gear really, it's more for recon/scout operations.

[Manglor]

I've had the same problem with the orc camp in Bree. As a solo player killing the groups of 5 guards to get into the camp is a slow process. One that's arguably as slow as the groups of orcs before the captain. Keep in mind that they stun you and this dramatically slows down the fight.

I've often taken 8-10 mins to kill them (neidar ftw) to just find a Ranger killing Gorgun and his cronies. It sucks. But that's the price you pay for not having stealth abilities. I think the bigger problem is that guards that can block you continue to do so when you're 'much' bigger than them. That doesn't make sense.

But how much of Genesis actually does, in fact, make sense?

You're looking at this as a victim, saying "That's not fair." Instead of saying, IMO, "That f*cking sucks, lucky bastards with invis!" You don't have to like it, and it doesn't have to be fair. And, for what it's worth, you have to kill the group in the room the Captain is in in order to kill him. You can't prance in, climb the ledge and collect loots. There's a 15 second or so hold up with those guards. *grin*

[Amorana]

I've had the same problem with the orc camp in Bree. As a solo player killing the groups of 5 guards to get into the camp is a slow process. One that's arguably as slow as the groups of orcs before the captain. Keep in mind that they stun you and this dramatically slows down the fight.

I've often taken 8-10 mins to kill them (neidar ftw) to just find a Ranger killing Gorgun and his cronies. It sucks. But that's the price you pay for not having stealth abilities. I think the bigger problem is that guards that can block you continue to do so when you're 'much' bigger than them. That doesn't make sense.

But how much of Genesis actually does, in fact, make sense?

You're looking at this as a victim, saying "That's not fair." Instead of saying, IMO, "That f*cking sucks, lucky bastards with invis!" You don't have to like it, and it doesn't have to be fair.

Eh, a valid secondary example, but I'm not sure I come to the same conclusion. Does it not feel a bit odd that certain guilds (who items benefit greatly) have quicker access to those items than others? Especially with gear that's limited?

I also think the problem is entirely solvable without modification of current abilities - get rid of the silly limits on gear. Make all "great gear" rare spawns that may or may not be found, but don't limit it to x number of items. Then it doesn't matter if someone is better at getting there than you are - you'll find it eventually if you put in the time and effort.

[Jhael]

I've had the same problem with the orc camp in Bree. As a solo player killing the groups of 5 guards to get into the camp is a slow process. One that's arguably as slow as the groups of orcs before the captain. Keep in mind that they stun you and this dramatically slows down the fight.

I've often taken 8-10 mins to kill them (neidar ftw) to just find a Ranger killing Gorgun and his cronies. It sucks. But that's the price you pay for not having stealth abilities. I think the bigger problem is that guards that can block you continue to do so when you're 'much' bigger than them. That doesn't make sense.

But how much of Genesis actually does, in fact, make sense?

You're looking at this as a victim, saying "That's not fair." Instead of saying, IMO, "That f*cking sucks, lucky bastards with invis!" You don't have to like it, and it doesn't have to be fair. And, for what it's worth, you have to kill the group in the room the Captain is in in order to kill him. You can't prance in, climb the ledge and collect loots. There's a 15 second or so hold up with those guards. *grin*

Personally, I think that because of the limit on items it really makes the ability to bypass blocking rooms problematic. It definitely is a case of "Luck bastards" but I think it's a mistake not to look further than that and consider what implications is has more than just being lucky.

[Windemere]

Part of the problem here is that a variety of other mechanisms for bypassing/getting around certain things have been removed.

1. Darkness was changed so that if you can see in darkness you can see in ALL levels. Also, NPCs were changed so that if they should be able to see in the dark, they do. Now, all this makes sense, but it removed the ability to walk in darkness to avoid certain auto-attacks/get past guards because they didn't see you.

2. Any Secret Kender and Ranger can confirm that stealth has changed quite a bit from what it used to be. Gone are the days of being able to sneak out from combat and it seems everyone and their dog has enough awareness to see you wandering around stealthy (especially in those rooms where it is harder to hide). Again, there are good reasons for this, but it has removed another component of bypassing/recon, etc..

3. Invisibility does not mean you are non-corporeal. You still have a body, you have just shifted yourself to a plane where you cannot be seen. If you want to argue you are in "another realm" when invisible, that is fine, but there should be some ramifications that come with that. I.E. not being able to attack from within this "other realm". If you are still in the same "realm" then your body should behave like any other body. There would then be risk that you can't just walk past the orcs because you'd bump into them. They could still smell you? Feel your presence? There are numerous reasons why an NPC could block/stop an invis character and if we go by what has been done in the past with Darkness/Stealth, then the changes make sense to limit abuse and fit more within the realm of what makes sense.

Windemere

[Manglor]

I've had the same problem with the orc camp in Bree. As a solo player killing the groups of 5 guards to get into the camp is a slow process. One that's arguably as slow as the groups of orcs before the captain. Keep in mind that they stun you and this dramatically slows down the fight.

I've often taken 8-10 mins to kill them (neidar ftw) to just find a Ranger killing Gorgun and his cronies. It sucks. But that's the price you pay for not having stealth abilities. I think the bigger problem is that guards that can block you continue to do so when you're 'much' bigger than them. That doesn't make sense.

But how much of Genesis actually does, in fact, make sense?

You're looking at this as a victim, saying "That's not fair." Instead of saying, IMO, "That f*cking sucks, lucky bastards with invis!" You don't have to like it, and it doesn't have to be fair.

Eh, a valid secondary example, but I'm not sure I come to the same conclusion. Does it not feel a bit odd that certain guilds (who items benefit greatly) have quicker access to those items than others? Especially with gear that's limited?

I also think the problem is entirely solvable without modification of current abilities - get rid of the silly limits on gear. Make all "great gear" rare spawns that may or may not be found, but don't limit it to x number of items. Then it doesn't matter if someone is better at getting there than you are - you'll find it eventually if you put in the time and effort.

I guess. I think the problem still is that mortals feel as though they can't play with anything but the best and what was the best 5-10 years ago is now crap. Give players a taste of armours/weapons that are gamebreaking and you create a monster, literally. We did fine before the MBP.

Guilds hoard items because they break too easily. No weapons/armours should break before stuck at scarred by battle/vbs. But instead, you have a sense of urgency to hoard 'in case they break.'